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teh religious debate thread

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Jakeman, Apr 3, 2002.

  1. SpocKirk

    SpocKirk Forum Moderator and Donator

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    Genesis was written before Paul, it is part of the Pentateuch (sp?), the first 5 books in the Jewish religion as well as the Christian religion. I think it was written by Moses, but it was just a combination of the oral telling of history (Adam & Eve, etc.), and the inspiration of God to the writer (creation)
     
  2. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    did anyone get my joke? :distress:
     
  3. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    Mmm, I don't think so. The apocalypse, heaven, and hell were revealed to Paul who wrote the book of Revelation based on them. Genesis is all oral tradition.

    Er, wha? I'm asking him to question and I'll disprove with fact, it's not a matter of decision, it's a matter of what's there... To my knowledge there is no factual contradiction in the Bible that can't be disproven.

    You guys are making generalizations like "question everything", and "the bible is full of contradiction", but I don't see anyone laying fact on me. I'm telling you you guys are just full of talk if that's how you take Religion, it does have a factual side to it.

    --Haite
     
  4. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    oh crap! i'm sorry! i promised myself i wouldn't do that but i'm doing it anyways. i hate generalizations in debates. sorry dude. :(
     
  5. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

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    Doesn't matter if it was oral tradition. These people knew nothing of the universe and anything else. Very basic, so what they wrote would have been modified to fit their understanding of the world.
     
  6. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    Possibly. That class you went to that explains how scientific creationism and deistic creationism can be the same thing sounds very interesting. Personally, I do believe there was a big bang, and that the earth did form over millions of years. Also, I do believe that men evolved from apes, there's nothing contradictory in that next to deistic creationism. You have to understand that Genesis is heavily metaphoric. One thing that is fact though, is that the first humans were Adam and Eve, now how you define that is your own thing, but I like to think of it as the first two sentient neanderthals. You say that's a thin line, well it probably is, but somewhere in there the ape became the man and instead of having an animal soul it gained a rational, immortal soul (if anyone wants me to break down the levels of spiritual existance for clarification, I'll do that).

    --Haite
     
  7. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    Well, I wouldn't call it a generalization in retrospect, I would call it unsupported claims. If you think the Bible is full of contradictions then let's see one (I know you didn't say that Jake, just using an example).

    --Haite
     
  8. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

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    BTW, Genesis does not say that God created the universe at the same time as Earth. It's just an account of the formation of Earth greatly sped up.
     
  9. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    hmm, i think of the bible as an unsupported claim. nothing particular, just the whole thing seems fubar. the bible acts as it's own proof almost. it's the end all be all. <- is that the right use of this phrase?
     
  10. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    It's very fundamental, this is true. However, there are lots of other documents that support it's authenticity. Most notably being the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. There are lots of other canonical works that aren't in the Bible that support it, other accounts of Jesus, etc.

    --Haite
     
  11. Wulf

    Wulf MSC Knight and Donator

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    Wasn't gonna touch this thread but...

    People people people... the bible is a story book, just like any other religious work.... what people get out of it is their own buisiness... I found the bible boring and read it only to appease my desire to be able to argue about shit :p I mean if the bible was a true account of all things pious then why are their more than one versions of it? Only one of them can be correct, right? Heh... right... now that I may have sown doubt here I will run away...
     
  12. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    *agree*

    what are the dead sea scrolls? i haven't heard of those.
     
  13. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    Documents unearthed I believe in Jordan that date back to the time of Jesus (approx. 50 or so AD, around when Matthew and Mark wrote their Gospels), that provide another account of his life. They haven't yet officially become a part of Catholic canon (to my knowledge), but they are in review to be.

    Wulf, the different versions of the Bible are for two reasons,

    1) alternate translations of the original Latin version (which was transcribed in the 4th century AD from the original Aramaic, Greek, etc. texts)
    2) Martin Luther's original scism from the Church lead to alternate renditions of various passages in the Bible as well as omissions to suit his needs, as I already said to SpcoKirk there are different Protestant versions

    --Haite
     
  14. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    account that jesus lived or account that he was a divine figure?
     
  15. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    Both. It was a full life story just like the Gospels as far as I know.

    --Haite
     
  16. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    who wrote it and how did they know?
     
  17. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    I'd have to get back to you on that. How did they know? I don't get what you mean by that... How did they know what Jesus did? Because (s)he was there. How did they know he was divine? Call it divine inspiration, whatever you feel like. The fact is that a new third party can corroborate the Biblical accounts, which is my point.

    --Haite
     
  18. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    well, that's not conclusive but it is progress.
     
  19. SpocKirk

    SpocKirk Forum Moderator and Donator

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    arrgh!!

    John wrote Revelation. Paul wrote Acts and most of the other New Testament books.
     
  20. SpocKirk

    SpocKirk Forum Moderator and Donator

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    if you take parts of the Bible as metaphor, what differentiates actual fact from metaphor? Would you take the flood as a metaphor? or the letters to the Corinthians? I take everything as fact, only the parts where a story is introduced as a parable or metaphor do I take it as metaphor.
     

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