Portal   Forum   Members   Market   Gallery   Events

school, creationism, intelligent design

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Jakeman, Jan 15, 2005.

  1. Calendryll

    Calendryll MSC Commander and Donator

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,336
    Likes Received:
    52
    Market Rating:
    0
    Im sorry they arent pulling evolution-but having to put some variants into play. Like energy is less now than when the universe began so if we go backwards in time then energy will increase to the point that energy present equals energy total. At this point energy is at the greatest it has ever been and ever will be because it lessens as time passes. Since energy cannot create itself there is no explanation for how it began or thus the universe. So if you cant explain how the universe began and thus the start of energy then it is impossible to explain the start of life (Scientifically, then you have your theories but that starts the argument over so I give up!). And I apologize as well for sounding so skeptical, I dont want you to think i am totally against it. I beleive a good part of it.....to a point.
     
  2. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2000
    Messages:
    13,721
    Likes Received:
    18
    Market Rating:
    0
    You're dealing with thermodynamics and entropy (disorder) there. True the entropy of the universe is always increasing however you can still create order as long as it's linked to another increase in disorder. It's the trick that pretty much all of life uses to get anything done.

    Also the big bang theory is another theory again, it's on the same page as string theory for explaining the origins of universe. Big bang theory (origins of the universe), abiogenesis (origins of life) and evolution (changes over time) are all distinct concepts.
     
  3. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2000
    Messages:
    13,721
    Likes Received:
    18
    Market Rating:
    0
    Debate is a good thing.

    Anyways, the whole origins of the universe is a really iffy realm because we still know very little (also it has nothing to do with evolution). The whole energy conundrum isn't all that great because we still don't know all the various forms of energy. Dark energy and dark matter still have to be either proved or disproved and many other particles are still being discovered.

    String theory attempts to explain this problem but it's still in its infancy. This is really high level stuff and I have no idea what I'm talking about so I can't really debate it.
     
  4. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    Messages:
    25,761
    Likes Received:
    27
    Market Rating:
    16
    Cow said just about everything I would have said.

    Many people confuse the definition of a theory. A theory is tested. A scientific theory is tested using scientific means. An hypothesis is basically an untested theory.

    Evolution is tested. ID is not. Evolution is not 100% proven, nothing in science is.

    The earth is not a closed system. We have constant energy input from the sun. The laws of thermodynamics apply to closed systems.
     
  5. BaleFire

    BaleFire MSC Footman

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2000
    Messages:
    948
    Likes Received:
    4
    Market Rating:
    0
    Why?

    We don't know how energy started, but we know that it did, and knowing that it exists, we can try and figure out how life was created from it, despite not knowing exactly where the energy came from.


    Whatever happened to that Deist idea that God created the universe like a big piece of clockwork, then let it sit and evolve, giving it a poke or a prod periodically? That one seemed like a winner. Except the problem of where God came from, so maybe not...
     
  6. OsIriS

    OsIriS Peasant

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2000
    Messages:
    1,059
    Likes Received:
    5
    Market Rating:
    0
    Cow also explained the problem with evolution, which is macroevolution, the jump of say, a fish to a land animal, not microevolution, which is adaptation to enviornment over time (i.e. the flying lizard in the Pacific rim losing its wings over a long exposure to certain high winds on certain islands).

    Plato's theory on God and the universe is an interesting one: the Universe has always been here, it is eternal. However, he believed that there must have been something or someone that put it in motion (a prime mover). His definition of God. Since this jibes with his theory that souls are eternal (these have always been here and always will, not created), it's fine that God has always existed. It's as good a theory as any when talking about a religious outlook.

    I also like his theory on religion: relativism, it's true for you, because you believe it, I'm not about to change your mind.

    In terms of the curriculum, there can be a problem, because I know a lot of biology teachers in high school teach evolution as if it is a law of nature as opposed to a theory. This is misleading. However, when I took biology at university, we discussed a lot of the problems with the theory, we debated, we got frustrated with the issues of holes in the evolutionary charts, etc. Perhaps we need to get that in high school as well, a more intellectual approach. I always hated rote memorization.
     
  7. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2000
    Messages:
    13,721
    Likes Received:
    18
    Market Rating:
    0
    I don't think high school students have enough exposure to all the theories to be able to debate on the merits of each. It would just turn into a creationism vs evolution shit storm.
     
  8. kraahl

    kraahl Peasant

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2002
    Messages:
    2,332
    Likes Received:
    2
    Market Rating:
    0
    That the debate is even possible... so so damn scary.
     
  9. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    Messages:
    25,761
    Likes Received:
    27
    Market Rating:
    16
    I didn't learn about the scientific method until college. I was not impressed with my highschool education.
     
  10. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2000
    Messages:
    13,721
    Likes Received:
    18
    Market Rating:
    0
    NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND :rolleyes:
     
  11. Calendryll

    Calendryll MSC Commander and Donator

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,336
    Likes Received:
    52
    Market Rating:
    0
    lol, I agree with you Jake. High school is extremely inadequate when it comes to this. I dont mean to sound like I am confusing theories and scientific methods but at times I dont see the relevance in seperating the two. Especially when they may say it has been tested but have very little if any proof that one exists. Yes, it may be tested and apply to certain areas but never, it seems, to the whole. This is what really bothers me about the whole thing. Did that make sense? They claim they have proven a theory on one aspect and suddenly the entire idea and all aspects that pertain to it are true. I find this ludicrous. Which is why there is so much debate in the first place.

    Edit: How old are you Cow? Most people dont even know what Thermodynamics is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2005
  12. OsIriS

    OsIriS Peasant

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2000
    Messages:
    1,059
    Likes Received:
    5
    Market Rating:
    0

    Our entire education system has too much redundency. The cirriculum writers want to coddle the children, not stress their brains out too much. We also put a lot of emphasis on self esteem builders, the reason why so many LD/ED kids are lumped into a regular classroom where they don't really belong most of the time. This causes a "teach to the lowest common denominator" fallacy by teachers, administrators, superintendents and curriculum writers.

    For example, there has been a push to start introducing algrebra, or at least pre-algebra, to kids at younger ages (at about 11, in some cases 10, I believe). Most cirruculum experts think that kids this young can't possibly comprehend (and we're talking on the physiological level) more abstract ideas in math. And then they moan in disbelief when other industrialized nations continually beat us at math and science testing.

    For those of you in other countries, most Americans don't get introduced to algebra until high school -- 14, a few at 13, and fewer still at 12. Age 12 is the youngest I heard of kids beginning to learn algebra in public schools, and these are the just the most gifted in math.

    Oh, and don't even get me started on the total BS that is the no child left behind act.
     
  13. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2000
    Messages:
    13,721
    Likes Received:
    18
    Market Rating:
    0
    Unfortunately no one wants their kid to be stupid and no teacher wants to teach the stupid kids so they lump them all together.

    I think some of the european formats are a bit better than ours, they have multiple school divisions. Three I think, one for the smart kids that preps them for university, one for the average kids and one for the dumb kids that preps them for trades.

    In most asian countries you either perform or work. School isn't a right and you're only entitled to attend if you pass each successive exam which are hard as hell. That wouldn't fly over here though since education through grade 12 is seen as a requisite to everything and we don't have a large labor intensive agricultural industry to keep all the people left behind occupied.
     
  14. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    Messages:
    25,761
    Likes Received:
    27
    Market Rating:
    16
    hehe
     
  15. JollyRedGiant

    JollyRedGiant MSC Commander

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    212
    Likes Received:
    8
    Market Rating:
    0
    yea, i am a senior (high school) and i completely agree that math is taught to the pace of the dumb (no offense). i have always been in the higher math since 6th grade, but in jr. high they taught us 2 years of algebra. now i have no real drive to learn. i am in AP calc AB ( lower of 2 AP calc classes) and am in AP physics. i love the classes, but wish that i had learned the math as i had progressed differently. instead of teaching so much algebra ( like 4 yrs total) learning more complex math earlier, allowing for more comfort for the hard math you encounter later.
     
  16. OsIriS

    OsIriS Peasant

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2000
    Messages:
    1,059
    Likes Received:
    5
    Market Rating:
    0
    It's also seen as a right, something that is both admirable and a little disingenous, in that we only have the one system (which is supposed to be college prep, which is anything but in most cases, unless you are self motivated, because very rarely do you get a guidance counselor, school administrator, or teacher who will give enough of a shit to tell you, you should take the gifts/ap class).

    England's system seems pretty good on paper, but apparently it's broken as well, becuase of the increasing lack of blue collar/trade work available in the country. There, everyone goes to grade school until 16 after which they choose to either enter a college prep program for 2 years, or a trade college for 2 years. I have a cousin who teaches at one of the trade colleges in London and says that it is ridiculously broken as a system, which only she could get into because I'm not from England, but suffice it to say that she is very disheartened in her current position.
     
  17. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2000
    Messages:
    13,721
    Likes Received:
    18
    Market Rating:
    0
    I'm twenty, I'm a junior at SFU.
     
  18. Wulf

    Wulf MSC Knight and Donator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    4,856
    Likes Received:
    10
    Market Rating:
    0
    I don't think its as much that these Highschools aren't trying to prepair you for college so much that most of the poeple teaching at these Highschools when to College so long ago that they don't understand how it is there anymore. Hell I even took College preparedness classes at my Highschool after I finished every single requirement for graduation. (Sure it was either that or sit around in the rec room all day with nothing to do but still) They basically told me that College was a horrible place where they beat you with rusty chains. So yeah...
     
  19. Elbereth

    Elbereth MSC Commander and Donator

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2000
    Messages:
    3,356
    Likes Received:
    14
    Market Rating:
    0
    It's not?
     
  20. Wulf

    Wulf MSC Knight and Donator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    4,856
    Likes Received:
    10
    Market Rating:
    0
    Well... My college used Shiny new chains attached to a automated flogger ;)
     

Hitometer: 54,601,432 since 1995