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hunting / religion debate

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by MisterHalleck, Jul 13, 2002.

  1. Beeble

    Beeble Peasant

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    My theory to the evolution is:

    find a scientist who studies evolution, ad ask him this: what created that?

    keep asking to each answer he gives, what created that? and That?

    and once you reach the big bang, ask him what created the articles that strted the big bang, on and on, and eventually, there will be no answer
     
  2. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    you are not understanding me. let me clarify. the negative potential of religion is blatantly obvious. the parallels between your so called "real and good" religions and "bad, not really religion" religions are also blatantly obvious.

    you are separating so called "good religions" and so called "bad religions." you are effectively saying that if a "bad" religion causes bad things to happen then religion can't be blamed so they aren't considered a religion? i am blaming religion for bad things that have happened in the past. you are saying it's not religion's fault if a person does bad things since religions always teach good. that's simply not correct. several "bad" religions come out of "good" religions due to the negative *potential* of many religious beliefs. "bad" people acting in the name of "bad" religion are still doing "bad" in the name of some god or higher power. "bad" religions are still religions. the terrorists that flew planes into the WTC were acting in the name of their god. it is obvious that their religion was the primary motivating factor there, so it is logical to conclude that religion was at fault, at least partially.

    who is to say there are the gullible ones? maybe people who are part of the "good" religions are the gullible ones. it all depends on your moral standards.

    that's nice. but i told you, i don't believe in the afterlife so i don't need to worry about it. thx though.

    that's not conclusive either way so it doesn't really matter.

    also not conclusive either way
     
  3. Beeble

    Beeble Peasant

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    Like I also said, belief isn't always REALITY!
    If you say you don't believe in death, then you won't die? you don't HAVE to believe in the afterlife, but it is STILL THERE regardless of what you BELIEVE.
    Jakeman, tell me, where will you be after you die, what will become of you...
     
  4. Strader

    Strader Peasant

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    No, I am saying that religions are all different from each other. The bad religions are still religions but since they actively ask for people to do bad things, they are bad. The religions that are not asking people to do bad things are not at fault. The person who does the bad thing is in this case. Some contain bad laws and objectives, others are just fine and actually help humanity through their "brotherly love" bit. If a Ford car is faulty, is it the fault of all cars in exsistance? No of course not. I am saying that if a specific religion has eddicts like "kill" and so on, they are bad and are a problem. Now let's say that there is a "good" religion where the people are helping the community and suddenly some guy interperets some phrase in a way that nobody in the religion agrees with, a way that is "evil" and is meant to kill or whatever. That is bad but it is not the religions fault. They did not tell him that. They actively stated to him otherwise and he would not listen. It was his mind and his choice. How can you blame the religion for that? People read all sorts of books and see movies and do bad things based upon them. The fault does not lie in the movie or book but in the person and the state of their mind and their decision processes. You can't blame one of the many factors in life for a person's decision. It is theirs to make and their responsibility to act properly. Now if the Religion itself states that people should do bad things that is different.

    I have never once stated that. Please don't put words into my mouth. I said that good religions have laws that were written a long time ago and have not changed over the years. If all of these laws and ways to live by are reasonable and do not call for the harm of the people or others then what is wrong with their organization? The other side of the coin is the religions that are actively pursuing evil goals. They are still religions but unlike the previous religions, they are involved with the evil. The good religions are not involved directly. The people who come out of a "good" religion that does not tell its people to do bad things and yet still do bad in the name of the religion are not representative of that religion any more because that religion does not believe what they are pursuing. If a man with a gun enters a building and claims that he must shoot everyone because Britney Spears wants him to and she does not, she is not to blame. He is.

    They are a member of a bad religion though. They have bad goals such as killing people. What I am saying is that people should not say that all religions are bad just because some are.
     
  5. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    Jesus and the Apostles were members of Judaism throughout their lives but with much variation, as Jewish tradition holds true in much of Catholicism (barring what Jesus replaced or abolished altogether). The line of Popes beginning with Peter can be traced all the way to John Paul II. Also, the breaking of bread in the last supper and the practice of the Eucharist thereafter is that of the Catholic manner. Most Protestant churches teach that the bread and wine shared during mass is merely symbolic. Catholicism and Jesus himself both taught and teach it to be substantially His body and blood, see Matthew 26:26 - 28.

    A common misconception.

    The glory does not rest with her but with God. Mary herself said that. She gave the glory to God, saying, "He that is mighty has done great things to me." But she did not deny that great things had been done to her which had not been done to others. And those who receive the greater gifts from God deserve the greater honor from us.

    The Catholic Church forbids anyone to ascribe any attributes of deity to Mary, whether inside or outside the grace of God. However holy she might be by grace, she still remains a creature. Mary would be the first to say that, but for the grace of God, she would have no privileges beyond those of other women. The Catholic Church teaches the same. But she certainly did receive graces that no other woman ever received or ever will receive, and in supernatural dignity and power surpasses them all. In bringing forth Jesus Christ she brought forth the life of my soul, and she is as much my mother in the supernatural order as my earthly mother in the temporal and natural order. And I for one hope ever to retain a child's devotion to my Heavenly Mother till the day of my death and for all eternity. I know that as Eve was the mother of all the living, yet brought us forth to suffering, misery and death, so Mary, the second Eve, and between whom and Satan God promised to put enmity, brought me forth to the happiness and life of God's grace.

    Eve listened to Satan, disobeyed God, gave us to eat of the tree of evil, left us miserable and driven from the paradise of the grace of God.

    Mary listened to an angel, obeyed, gave us to eat of the tree of life, restored happiness to us and us to God's grace, and she is enthroned in Heaven with Christ. And there she is my Mother and my Queen. I can only wish she could be as proud of me as I am of her.

    Christ was the principal Author of our redemption, but there were many secondary cooperators in the work. We even find St. Paul saying that we are to fill up what is wanting to the sufferings of Christ. The explanation of this, however, would demand a treatise on the mystical body of Christ as comprising all the members of the Church, and I can scarcely do justice to it now. All I can say is that Mary cooperated in the redemptive work in a way quite special to herself.

    As Jesus is the second Adam, so Mary is the second Eve. As our first Mother Eve brought us forth to misery and suffering, so our second Mother Mary, in bringing forth our Savior, brought us forth to happiness and salvation. Mary's consent was asked by God when the time for the Incarnation was at hand; she consented to the full work of Christ from the cave of Bethlehem to the Cross of Cavalry. She provided the very blood that was shed for us. In union with Christ she had her own passion, and Simeon rightly predicted to her, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, "Thy own soul a sword shall pierce." With, in, and through the work of Christ her sufferings also contributed secondarily towards our redemption. And she was given to us from the Cross as a mother for a mother's work. To all of us Christ said, in the person of St. John, "Son, behold thy Mother." We Catholics, therefore, regard Mary as our spiritual Mother, entertaining towards her the love and devotion of children. Every Christian woman, above all, should regard Mary, the Mother of Christ, as the glory of her sex.

    In short, Catholics do not worship Saints, to do so would be heresy. We pray with them and ask for their intercession.
     
  6. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    after i die? i don't know, i have never died before.
     
  7. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    Re: Re: Re: Thin Ice...

    That's almost exactly the case. St. Thomas (Summa Theologica I:108), following St. Denis (De Coelesti Hierarchia, vi, vii), divides the angels into three hierarchies each of which contains three orders. Their proximity to the Supreme Being serves as the basis of this division. In the first hierarchy he places the Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones; in the second, the Dominations, Virtues, and Powers; in the third, the Principalities, Archangels, and Angels.
     
  8. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

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    Have you ever had a general anesthetic?

    That is death. No conciousness, nothing. You die, you cease to exist as an individual. You die like any other animal.

    Oh and just because you believe there is an afterlive, doesn't mean it does not exist. B E L I E F isn't R E A L I T Y.

    You don't have to believe in the afterlive. It doesn't exist, regardless of your beliefs.
     
  9. Strader

    Strader Peasant

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    YOU don't believe in it just as Macguru and I do believe in it. You have no proof either way so let people believe what they want without drawing conclusions based upon no facts. It's fine for you to think that it doesn't exist, just don't place that as fact for all to abide by because your beliefs are not law.
     
  10. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    none of you have died before.
     
  11. Strader

    Strader Peasant

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    You don't have to see or experience something for it to exist or not exist. Black Holes were not proven until a few years ago. Before their discovery many believed in them and many did not. The choice of believe is yours. That's the beauty of freedom.
     
  12. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    very dangerous... believing stuff like that without feeling the need to justify.

    i believe that if i walk into a public place with a bomb strapped to my chest and blow myself up that i will go to heaven, and no one can tell me otherwise because i can believe whatever i want.

    just talking crap. :p
     
  13. Strader

    Strader Peasant

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    That's your choice it is a free county and your life to do what you want with. Of course why on earth would you want to do that when you could enjoy your time here on earth, help out the people in your community and then go. After all, we all die eventually. Suicide is stupid. Life is a precious gift and we should make good use of our time here on earth.

    It was also very dangerous for explorers like Christopher Columbus to sail accross the ocean without having proof that the earth was round. It was dangerous for the first men in space to attempt the mission without knowing absolutely for certain how it would effect them. When you take out a loan you don't know if you will have the job in the next few years to ensure that it will be paid off properly. There are tons of things like this in life.

    If you think that those Al-Quiadah people on the plane symbolize religion everywhere then your view is very narrow. Some people can be made to do just about anything with the proper method. There are men and women who believe that aliens exist and good for them but I'm not about to assume that they're gonna start shooting down "alien" vessels with their black market flak cannon just because they mistake a military jet for a UFO now and then. (Thus accidentally killing our people in the military.) I'm not saying I don't believe in aliens or that I do... I am just creating an example.

    I still can't help but notice how you have to belittle us with things like sticking out your tongue and saying that we are talking crap. I feel no need to insult your beliefs so do not insult mine or anyone elses. Just state your point instead, it's a lot less rude.
     
  14. Strader

    Strader Peasant

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    I almost forgot. Why the debate? It's not like any of us can prove anything either way. Debates seem so pointless sometimes...
     
  15. Jerry Vegas

    Jerry Vegas Peasant

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    whew

    just realized that i posted a retort waaaaay late in the conversation....

    sorry folks still gettin' used to this here thingy

    My goodness-

    I have just now finished reading most of this little diatribe here and I must say I think.......hmmmmmm..... yes!!

    It is very silly!!!
    And as for my punishment I’ll shall run to the other room toot sweet, don my hair shirt and flog myself many many times over with a lash made from the fine stygian pubic hairs of many Hungarian virgins.
    However, I do have one thing to say from the point of view coming from neither of the for mentioned ism’s. Isn’t it rather odd that an atheist should mock a Christian for lack of proof in his/her God when they can offer no proof of his nonexistence? Wouldn’t that be doubly dum? I think Most scientist would say that’s a no, no. No?

    Not that I’m sticking up for you religious folk. Considering the job you’ve done so far....

    you may all now bow for prayer

    your messiah

    edit: 1 of 3 posts deleted cos it was spammy, 2nd and 3rd posts put into 1 post. -jake
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2002
  16. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    who are you to tell me what is right and wrong? ...what i should and shouldn't do. my moral standards may be different.

    jerry is being weird :suspect:
     
  17. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

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    Okay, I was making fun of your argument but it seems to have gone over your head.
     
  18. kraahl

    kraahl Peasant

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    Now you´re making me upset, really upset. Don´t you understand, you brought this upon yourselves.
    It´s very simple, if you cannot openly attack another country because the other country is so much more powerful you have to use other metods.
    The talibans could not launch an invasion agaist the US. Impossble. No one can do that today.
    What they can do is start using guerilla warfare tactics. They blow things up and try to make you fear them.
    That´s the only way to hurt the US, that´s the only way metod they CAN use.

    If america was not the only superpower and stoped trying to police the world, things like WTC would not happen.

    Saying that they are a member of a "bad" reigion is just nonsense. Most religions are not bad, muslims are not bad. Some of them are, but to say they´re all bad is like saying that all black people are thieves just because some of them are. There are american terrosits as well, just as there´re white theives.

    In saying that you´re being both ignorat and full of prejudice.
     
  19. Strader

    Strader Peasant

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    Kraahl give it a rest. I never said that the Muslims were bad. I have stated this over and over in my previous posts. I also realize that this was likely their only avenue of attack due to their limited options. I just don't like the killing of non-military personel. Of course there are plenty of American terrorists. Did I say any different? They are a different offshoot of the standard Muslim faith Kraahl. While other Muslims are good people these ones are doing what the other Muslims want nothing to do with because they think it is wrong. Please don't assume that I am including all Muslims into the "bad" category because I never once said that. Thanks for jumping to conclusions. There are many different "sects" so to speak in the Muslim religion and some have bad goals in mind. Most do not. Thanks for calling me ignorant and prejudice Kraahl. The entire point of my previous posts was that we should not include other religions that are "innocent" of certain crimes but only the ones that do the "evil" acts. In this way I have only accused the specific people in this sect and NOT the entire Muslim people as a whole. They are very nice and polite. My Church regularly hosts trips to the local Mosk to promote understanding. Way to accuse without asking for clarification first.
     
  20. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    you can't argue the fact that many religions have had bloody histories. that's why i'm concerned about haite's belief that animals don't have souls.
     

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