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Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by DunAzrael, Oct 6, 2002.

  1. DunAzrael

    DunAzrael Peasant

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    What does nothing look like?
    If it is said that nothing is "enter adjective", then does'nt that make it a something, therefore nothing is a physical and theoreitcal impossibility. I'm sure when you guys read this you'll say, "well, nothing is the absence of something", but then does'nt that void the fact that it is nothing with the statement that you said nothing=absence of something, which in turn makes it something?
    To back myself up I state the first law of thermodynamics:
    The conservation of energy. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, therefore, again, I reiterate, there is no such thing as nothing. Anyway, I'm sure cow will put his input, but feel free to chop my theory down and tell me I am wrong.
     
  2. Draco_Auric

    Draco_Auric Peasant

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    I agree, if nothing is the lack of every thing then it cannot exist since for it to exist it would have to have some characteristics of existing and therfore its not nothing.
     
  3. aleldtritch

    aleldtritch Peasant

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    You can say it either way. It still means the same thing.

    Like y=0 is the same as y=0x
     
  4. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    How does the Conservation of Energy have anything at all to do with your idea?

    Nothing is the opposite of an infinite, which is interesting because it in and of itself is an infinite but we treat it as a finite. We cannot really define an infinite completely. Saying that nothing is the absence of something is completely accurate because it is a rationalization of the human mind. The way we word a description of something has nothing to do with its nature, to think so would be absurd. The concept is also relative. If the universe began at a singularity in the big bang, then what happened before that? The answer is "nothing", because space-time did not exist, and therefore any action before the big bang would have no consequence on our universe whatsoever.
     
  5. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    the opposite of infinity is negative, or the opposite of, infinity which is something, not nothing. -(infinity)

    ...mathematically speaking that is

    what does nothing look like? we would need to ask the greater questions to answer that. what does nothing lack? no matter? no space? no time? when everything is eliminated to create nothing is there a backdrop, a cavnas on which everything exists? is this canvas removable to further create nothing? what does the canvas look like? are we talking about appearance through the human eye? etc.
     
  6. kraahl

    kraahl Peasant

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    There is no such thing as "nothing". Nothing does not exist, there´s always something there.
    You can go into space and say "hey there´s nothing here, it´s vaccum (spelling)" but there is.
    There´s always atoms, even if they´re few and there´s a few meters between them, there are atoms.
    When we say "nothing", we don´t mean "nothing"...
     
  7. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    so nothing is defined as an area void of matter? what if we made a perfect vacuum that was void of even those few atoms? that would be a vacuum?
     
  8. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

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    I think he meant by the thermodynamics comment that "nothing" would theoretically have the lowest state of organization (entropy) and therefore things would move into this "nothing".

    We can't define nothing. We can imagine a vacuum, but there's still photons, muons, neutrinos, etc.. passing through so it really isn't nothing because there's something in it. This is in reference to space.

    We can't at all imagine just plain nothing.
     
  9. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    No. If we were talking about morals then that would be like saying the opposite of love is hate, which is not the case. The opposite of love is apathy, as the opposite of infinity is nothingness. Negative infinity is a state of depravation of something, not an equilibrium of nothingness (which would be zero).

    Cow, the second law of thermodynamics deals with entropy and organization, not the first.

    kraahl speaks of within our universe, obviously our universe contains matter and energy somewhat evenly dispersed, so our universe evidently does not contain nothing, however nothing may contain our universe.

    Jake speaks of a "canvas". Would this canvas be identifiable to us as our (approximately) 11-dimensioned spacetime? I'm thinking so. Going back to my big bang model, at the point of the singularity, all spacetime would be infinitely curved without boundary or limit. A good analogy would be the earth's surface but with two more dimensions on it. No matter where you go you can never stop (because you traverse a sphere), however there would also be no limit in area or boundary to this area (the two other dimensions). If nothing were to exist, it would have no measureable quantities or features, and no dimensions. Imagine a point; geometrically speaking a point does not have an exact location in space, nor does it occupy any space. Take that point away and you have a vacuum of zero size and dimension, this probably can be called nothing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2002
  10. kraahl

    kraahl Peasant

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    We cannot create perfect vacuum, because there is no such thing.
     
  11. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    I try to keep my arguments less mundane than this, but

    you have no evidence. There is no such thing as a vacuum as is doable by our technology within our universe. What of outside the universe or before spacetime began? The only answer to those questions objectively to us literally is "nothing". I would propose two types of nothingness, both of which I defined in this thread. The first type being physical nothingness, which is the "point of nonexistance" I spoke of in my previous post, as well as the "influential nothingness" I spoke of in an earlier post much higher up. The second is what fits my example here, in that there may be events outside or before our universe, but neither have consequence upon us since they do not affect us.
     
  12. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    but we aren't, and i'm talking about mathematics :p
     
  13. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    So am I... it's just an analogy :confused:.
     
  14. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    no, you were just talking about morals, love, apathy, etc. mathematically the opposite of infinity is literally -(infinity), and -(infinity) != 0. that's like saying A = zero. infinity is not a number and there fore cannot be set equal to anything except itself.
     
  15. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    Or, more accurately, the opposite of infinite presense is zero presence. A negative presence still must be in equilibrium with an inversely positive presence for there to be a zero balance, which is the presence of two counteracting values.

    We're not talking about equality, because the issue of the numbers cancelling out is something different entirely, in that case negative infinity would be so, but that is irrelevant. The simple lack of anything, numerically, is zero, as the omnipresence of something...

    Holy crap, revelation time! Get rid of the infinities, since they're not relevant at all. As I said, the lack of anything is zero, no equilibrium between two values, nothing. The presence of something is the set of {any nonzero value}. Infinities do not matter here.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2002
  16. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    as it relates to this topic, you are correct... assuming "nothing" is zero. negativity has a value, an absolute value in relation to nothing (zero).

    but i'm talking about mathematics, off subject. :p
     
  17. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    It doesn't matter. The numerical inverse of positive infinity is negative infinity, but that's not the opposite. This is a conflict of terms. +Infinity is omnipresence, -infinity is omni-absence, 0 is nothing.
     
  18. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    by definition, negative 1 times a thing is the opposite of that thing.

    there fore, the opposite of infinity is -1(infinity). simplified is -(infinity).

    you say the numerical inverse (actually called the additive inverse) of infinity is negative infinity. if negative infinity is -(infinity) then negative infinity is the same as the opposite of infinity by definition.

    there fore, it is the opposite
     
  19. kraahl

    kraahl Peasant

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    infinity - infinity = infinity

    why doesn´t it show my nice "infinity-eights-turned-sideways"?

    Isn´t there something greater then infinity called something like "Aleph One"
    Marathon teaches a lot of things...
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2002
  20. DunAzrael

    DunAzrael Peasant

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    If energy cannot be created or destroyed, then nothing is inconceivable.
    Because in order for nothing to exist, there would have to be a space where energy once existed coherent to the "size of the nothing". I just used thermodynamics to help reiterate that nothing is impossible. Whether it be actual kinetic energy, or just potential, that something, that must have been there for nothing to exist in it's place, had energy, and since energy cannot be created or destroyed, nothing is impossible.

    So... What's up? :rofl:
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2002

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