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the more things change

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Onisama, Jun 7, 2001.

  1. Onisama

    Onisama Peasant

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    just when you think Blizz has got this item stuff figured out...

    new changes to elites
    http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/


    they must really like those silly lancers
     
  2. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    What are you looking at here?

    This?:

    War Pike (elite Pike/Lance)
    Damage: 33 to 178
    Clvl Req:62
    Str Req:165
    Dex Req:106
    Range: 5
    Durability: 25
    Possible Sockets: 6
    Barb Speed: Very Slow

    Or this?:

    Stygian Pike (elite Trident/Fuscina)
    Damage: 29 to 144
    Clvl Req: 54
    Str Req:168
    Dex: 97
    Range: 4
    Durability: 35
    Possible Sockets: 4
    Barb Speed: Normal

    If I were a Lance Barb, I think I may prefer the Stygian Pike. Only slightly less damage, higher Durability, and most importantly, a faster attack. With WW becoming speed dependent, the difference between Normal and Very Slow is going to be huge.

    Anyway, what's your beef here?
     
  3. Onisama

    Onisama Peasant

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  4. Onisama

    Onisama Peasant

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    my "beef" at this point is admittedly kneejerk but revolves around the clvl/req/dam/benefit vs cost ratio on the high end elites. Clvl 62!??


    I need to look at things further to see if the "lesser" elites being better (or almost the same) as the high level elites really bugs me. Not that anyone really cares (or should). :D ;)
     
  5. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Hmm, I haven't been following the numbers on these new items very closely, so maybe that's why I'm missing your point. I am gathering that the clvl reqs are lower than they used to be? What was the clvl req on something like a War Pike before?
     
  6. Onisama

    Onisama Peasant

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    significantly lower.

    I cannot be absolutely certain, (the cached version of Arreat summit has been purged from my browser's history and D2.net's tems database has been down for a week or so) but I remember none of the top of the line elites having a clvl below 70 (I would say 72, but that might be wrong). Furthermore, most of the top of the line elites were all pretty similar with respect to their clvl reqs. Compare the clvl reqs between a WP and a Thunder Maul (which incidently got a nice range boost as well - not that it really needed it).

    So, you compare clvl regs across the board, Str/Dex reqs across the board (keeping in mind that these are sort of overcomeable with equipment), Compare damages (min/max/and average), then throw in benefit vs cost ratios and you'll se what I am talking about.

    Nothing in there, not even a "very slow" speed warrants giving WP that low of a clvl req. (but that's not the whole story, that's just the example I used.)




    I feel that I need to add this.
    I'm starting to have fun being a little "bitchy" about all this. I have passed the point where I am really upset by any of it, concerned yes, upset no. Just wanted to once again sort of put things into perspective.
     
  7. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    i don't see the big deal
     
  8. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    Ya, it's all about swords :cool:. Wow, used the cool smily twice in one go, see the Help Forum.

    --Haite
     
  9. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Hey, "bitch" away. I am enjoying the discussion.

    Anyway, I think I see where you're going...

    Here are the clvl reqs of some of the "top of the line" physical damage elites (and average "one-hit" damage in parenthesis)...

    War Pike: 62 (105.5) I miscalculated this as 122 earlier.
    Hydra Bow: 66 (39)
    Scissors Suwayyah: 67 (45.5)
    Giant Thresher: 68 (77)
    Colossus Blade: 68 (45 one-handed, 86.5 two handed)
    Thunder Maul: 75 (105)

    As you can see, War Pikes have the highest average damage, but the lowest clvl req. Screwy. There does seem to be a bias toward WW Barbs. (Hey, they are the majority, Blizz knows what side their bread is buttered on.) Right now though it is hard to tell what the WW speed nerf will do. The question really is, how much damage per time will these weapons be capable of? For example, Assassins and Sword Barbs are dual wielding, and Zons of course have Multishot and Strafe. Just taking these numbers out of their in-game context isn't enough to know for sure how balanced they are.

    Of course, this is a very basic analysis. I didn't include Str/Dex reqs, which of course will affect the usability of this stuff. Also, you'll notice I did not include mage class items, because I don't think it's a valid comparison. The mage classes rely more on skill and attribute boosts, so physical characteristics of those items is meaningless.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2001
  10. Onisama

    Onisama Peasant

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    yeah, you are running along the right lines. Now just add in the str/dex reqs (take a decent look at the thunder maul) and you are pretty much there.

    these things should run a little more parallel than they do.


    Jake
    you really don't see any problem, or are you just playing Devil's Advocate?
     
  11. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    no, i don't see the problem. high reqs make the game more challenging which is good.
     
  12. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    But that's just it. It's less challenging now. The reqs have been lowered from where they once were, and at first glance they seem out of whack. The most powerful elites (aka War Pike) have lower reqs compared to top of the line elites in other weapon categories.

    Like I said, it's hard to tell for sure without actually playing the game whether these items are balanced or not. But, just looking at the numbers it looks fuxored. The only elite item that comes close to the damage that a War Pike can do is a Thunder Maul, and it has a clvl req that's 13 levels higher, and a Str Req that's an obscene 88 higher. On the other hand, the Thunder Maul has no minimum Dex req, which is bizarre. You could just pump Str I suppose, since you can't use a shield with a Th. Maul anyway, but then your AR would suck and you wouldn't be hitting anything.

    The War Pike especially seems way out of line. Take a look at the Giant Thresher, it's clvl req is 6 higher than the War Pike, the Str req is 23 higher, and the Dex req is 34 higher! And yet it does an average of 29 damage less per hit. The only thing the GT has going for it is a faster attack speed than the WP, Normal vs. Very Slow for the most likely user, a Barb. Is that enough to balance it? Maybe. The only way to know for sure is through game play.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2001
  13. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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  14. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    It's a crafted item :eek:! I gots ta find da recipe...

    On a side note, take a look at that guy's clvl. Some people have no lives...

    --Haite
     
  15. Onisama

    Onisama Peasant

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    nailed it right on the head Haite.
    The thunder maul is totally fuxored, they might as well list it with 273 (or whatever it is) STR and 70 dex, because that's about minimum of what you need to hit anything worth a damn. That's a total of over 340 stat points you need just to use the blasted thing. Sure, you can get the required stat points from items and such, but whay bother with meeting reqs for TM when you can use a war pike, get better range, just as good damage and a lot more health? For the 150% damage against undead? That a nice bonus, but not War Pikes are way too low on reqs. Everything dropped down in clvl reqs (except for the Maul, axe and one other item I cannot remember), and several things got damage boosted significantly (war pike for one, check Chuck's thread entitled wierd damages, I think he lists WP dam in there at the time). Things aren't harder anymore :(

    and here's where I point out again that just making things harder does not inherently create the type of balance that should be sought. In this case it would go a long way though.


    furthermore, the percieved rationale for doing this just stinks.
    It smells as though Blizz is making this move in order to appease the angry legions of silly lancers out there who want to convert their chars, not realizing that "it's a whole new game"
    That's a truly horrid reason for doing this and I really, really hope that it isn't the case.
    I'm hoping the new elite update is riddled with typos that are going to get changed soon.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2001
  16. Onisama

    Onisama Peasant

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    damn. :distress:

    another side note:
    take a look at def, resists, life and clvl of this guy and answer me this.

    If hell diff is supposed to be so tough, how is he able to get to level 91 so quickly with 710 life, hefty neg resists and only 994 def while using a polearm (presumably he's shape shifting, but still...)??
     
  17. Haite

    Haite Forum Moderator

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    There's something to do with skill tree masteries and such, like a barb with his damage, the druid gets phenominal life boosts. For example, a barbarian just holding a lance with no mastery or skill does ordinary, sucky damage. Once he has maxed lance mastery and whirlwind he does a ton. The druid on the other hand, gets life bonuses in his different forms, and from shapeshifting masteries, hence once he transforms his life will be increased many-fold.

    --Haite
     
  18. Onisama

    Onisama Peasant

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    looks like that's a bug with crafted items that allows them to get magic only mods like "cruel"
    word is that it will be fixed before release. :rolleyes: :laugh:

    oh, btw Lurk.
    did you see the dual leech, +skills, +10 resist circlet in that batch? Clvl 40
     
  19. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Yeah, circlets are going to become everyone's new favorite item. Circlets look like they will have the potential to be beneficial to all classes, so they really don't bother me that much.

    Back to that War Pike: Have you seen any tester reports on how the speed nerf is affecting WW? I'm hoping the slow attack speed makes up for their ease of use. :rolleyes: It's not much of a hope, but it's there.

    Speaking of silly lancers, how good is this lance?...
     

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  20. Onisama

    Onisama Peasant

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    I was mainly alluding to the fact that it wasn't the leech & resists that made the coronet we were talking about last week have such a high clvl, but yes, circlets and the like are going to make other helms obsolete. You should know by now what my next sentence should be. :)



    I don't know of any silly lancers who would trade you for that one (unless you find someone new to the game), most of them want something over 250 dam (minimum) and preferrably IAS now that word is out on the WW nerf.


    Most of the reports I've seen regarding weapon speed and WW talk about other skills to use in lieu of WW. I've seen a few brief references to getting as much ias, sias stuff as you can (which seems extraordinarily easy from what I have seen), but nothing really detailed on how it is effected.

    I vaguely remember one report where the tester said the spin speed is the same, you just hit less frequently, but there was something else about that report that lead me to believe that the individual was not necessarily a reliable source. Cannot remember what gave me that impression. Senility must be creeping in :)
     

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