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school, creationism, intelligent design

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Jakeman, Jan 15, 2005.

  1. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    I was just reading this.

    Is anyone here familiar with the recent push for schools to teach "intelligent design"? It is basically the conclusion that there must have been an intelligent creator (god) of life on this planet because there are irreducibly complex elements to life. The argument is that it is highly improbable that evolution could have built such irreducibly complex systems through natural selection, and therefore those systems must have been created by an intelligent creator.

    Proponents of this theory push it as having scientific merit. The argument is very slick and very convincing, but in fact there is nothing scientific about its methodology... "intelligent design" cannot possibly be scientifically tested. I would love to see some one come up with a scientific test to demonstrate the existence of god. Such a test cannot exist because science does not deal with supernatural explanations.
     
  2. harleyb

    harleyb Peasant

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  3. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

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    Religion needs to stay very, very, very far away from public schools and specifically science classes for two reasons.
    1. Separation of church and state. You can't teach one religion as fact in a public school when everyone's taxes are paying for the system.
    2. Intelligent design is not science, not a theory and laughable.
     
  4. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    I think the problem comes when advocates of creationism cast evolution as a religious belief instead of a scientific theory. This causes them to feel excluded.
     
  5. OsIriS

    OsIriS Peasant

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    I agree with everyone here, if someone doesn't want their child to hear about evolution in their school, send them to some evangelical private school (Liberty Univertisy is a fine example of a nice fake school to send your kids too).

    They're sneaking it in based on the idea that certain components to the evolutionary theory are as yet unproven and are still theory, and therefore, alternate theories should be introduced into the classroom as alternatives to evolution. It's a slick way.

    I'm actually more concerned about the Texas health class rooms in high school which have forced text book makers to change all references to "partner" in their texts to "husband and wife" in accordance to their ban on gay marriage in the state. A religious definition of marriage is actually a much bigger violation of the idea of the separation of church and state than introducing intelligent design theory in the classrooms (however heinous an act that is to put into a biology class.) James Madison himself, the writer of the Bill of Rights and himself a deeply religious man would be rolling in his grave at the state of our politics today, and the rhetoric surrounding certain "faith-based" initiatives http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/memorial.htm.

    I'm also concerned about their lack of education on contraception and other forms of birth control being taught, also in accordance to their state education laws wherein abstinance is the only form of sex education that can be taught in a public school.

    This is disconcerting mainly because Texas is the largest spender of education materials in the United States and thus what they say goes pretty much for every other state.

    Education is a big issue with me, because I used to teach English to 9th graders until I became completely disheartened by the state of our system, the apathy of its administrators, its students and its parents. My wife currently is a high school English teacher (even though she is also losing that spark by the oppression of the lack of intelligent curiosity expressed by 95% of her students). So, this kind of unenlightened CRAP really gets to me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2005
  6. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    What annoys me is proponents of the separation of church and state who say "God bless America". Kerry really pissed me off when he did that. That's just one of my pet peeves.

    Abstinence is not a solution to the abortion issue. Preaching abstinence can only lessen the number of occurrences where the question of abortion is raised, and so you still must deal with the question; abstinence offers no answer to the inevitable question, and so it is a "cop out" position. However, it makes for a great political position on the issue of abortion because it cannot be directly attacked as being a bad position... it is like a truism that floats above the actual issue.
     
  7. Kaeric

    Kaeric Peasant

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    This concerns me greatly as well. I have yet to hear a decent arguement for the banning of homosexual marriage that does not involve religion. I've heard many that mask it, but when push comes to shove it always comes down to morality and your faith... and personally I don't think this is a kind of issue that you can legislate morality on. Does this comparatively tiny minority really pose any real threat in a nation that I've heard described as %80 christian by anti-homosexual marriage supporters? I'll laugh in your face if you say yes...
     
  8. OsIriS

    OsIriS Peasant

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    Anyone who saw me say Lynchburg College was the fake school, I amended that to be Liberty University (they're both in Lynchburg, Virginia so I got a little mixed up).
     
  9. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

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    To resolve the whole issue all the government has to do is stop issuing and recognizing marriage licenses. Instead they issue civil unions to anyone who applies regardless of race/gender/sexuality/whatever. Then marriage is brought back to the church. That way the church can do what they want and anyone can get a union. You just have to play ball with the church to get married, if the church doesn't want to marry you then tough beans because they're a private institution.
     
  10. Calendryll

    Calendryll MSC Commander and Donator

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    Actually if you think about it the teachings of "evolution" are a type of religion. It is still all about your beliefs. If someone does not want to be forced to learn religion why they be forced to learn evolution. There is no hard credibility in either area.
     
  11. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

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    No, it's not. Science is to be taught in public schools. Evolution is a scientific theory, intelligent design is not. ID requires faith and therefore is a religion, evolution provides testable predictions.

    Here is a diagram.
    [​IMG]
    ID stalls at the 'test hypothesis' step since no one can design an experiment that doesn't involve an altar on a mountain and God striking it with lightning.
    Evolution has gone straight to the theory step. It has joined other theories such as gravity and relativity.
     
  12. Calendryll

    Calendryll MSC Commander and Donator

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    Perhaps. I see nothing in evolution besides "theory". Philosophically speaking religion is nothing but belief based upon theory. There is also much scientifically proven as well as historical events in a great many religions throughout the world. Not one of them teaches we came from monkeys. I just have a hard time swallowing that at one point we all came from microbial single cell organisms. I took a religion course and to many people try to take the bible literally for what it says. Terms, understanding, and language conversion has all played a major part in how people take it. It is a lot more fact-(obviously not all) than people give it credit for. The time/age of the earth doesnt even permit the kind of time to elapse for our "mutations/evolving period (whatever you want to call it)." If this is so then why havent we evolved further in the last couple million years, or why hasnt something else evolved close to our current state? *sigh* I just dont want to come from a monkey. Oh crap, maybe we are all regressing! We will all be monkeys again in a hundred years! NOOOOOOOOOOO!!! I dont think this went in the direction i intended it. Oh well. I think the rest of you dont even exist, you are all just figments in my imagination. You are only real because i beleive you to be real. haha
     
  13. Calendryll

    Calendryll MSC Commander and Donator

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    Then this should have been rejected. Never proven true and if this is so then why are we still teaching it. So we are still at the problem of teaching what might be........which is exactly what we did with christianity in this country. In this respect we have made scientists the existing "god" because now they have all the answers. Except that........they still cant create life. Yea yea they can copy it i know. But they wont even come out and prove that. I am skeptical of everything.
     
  14. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

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    Theories don't need faith because they've been tested. You don't believe that you're not going to float up into space in a few minutes because you know gravity exists and it will keep you down here.

    The existance of an intelligent being and our creation by him is an untested hypothesis.
    Evolution on the other hand is a tested hypothesis which has become theory. Of course evolution says nothing about the origin of the universe and our planet. Only that many small changes accumulate over time due to natural selection.

    Also 3.8 billion years is a long time.
     
  15. Calendryll

    Calendryll MSC Commander and Donator

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    I concede! This is the unending argument for the last 3.8 billion years. I just dont see enough proven in either direction to sway my vote. As for the universe......let us just leave that to Hawking. lol.
     
  16. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

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    Nothing is ever proven, theories are accepted as fact until disproven and no one has yet been able to disprove evolution. We know that microevolution occurs, macroevolution is just an extension of the concept.

    We can create the fundamental building blocks of life from inanimate materials (amino acids and other molecules like lipids) spontaneously thanks to the Urey/Miller experiment and other experiments have created even more. From there it's just a hop, skip and jump to bacteria. But this isn't evolution, this is origins of life about which evolution says nothing. The only thing that evolution contends is that changes accumulate over time due to a selective pressure.

    That's the problem with most of evolution's critics, they automatically assume that evolution is trying to disprove God but evolution does not preclude intelligent design at all, in fact, it's very compatible (well except for the soul thing).
    As someone that grew up in a christian household attending church every week and having pretty religious parents I've been well exposed to the whole religion idea and honestly it isn't very satisfying. Now as a biology major who has spent the last three years dealing with this topic in almost every course I can say that abiogenesis is a lot more intellecually satisfying than the proposition that life is God's gift and that somewhere there's an omnipotent something.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2005
  17. Calendryll

    Calendryll MSC Commander and Donator

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    I dont mean to change the subject but i wish the F***ING WoW servers would evolve into a more flawless/no lag/no downtime construct. And yes, I believe the part about change over time. Just not all the Willy Wanka b.s. that comes with it.
     
  18. Calendryll

    Calendryll MSC Commander and Donator

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    I just did some reading and apparently there is a great many errors and shortcomings in the theorized evolutionary process. So much so in fact that a great many universitys in the U.S. have begun to pull it from their curriculums. So.....while it may sound good in words; when in testing and in debate amongst our scientists it appears there are to many flaws in its developement to be an accurate state at which the process could occur. Energy seeming to be one of the biggest. Of course i am sure in six months something will turn it around again and will be in favor in everyones eyes again.
     
  19. JollyRedGiant

    JollyRedGiant MSC Commander

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    here is my 2 cents. cow, u said it urself WE can create something from inanimate objects, it doesn't just happen. I also grew up in a christian household, but i do believe in creation. it does have to do with my upbringing, but partly because i cant see everything that excists was made from an explosion. explosions create disorder, not order.
     
  20. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

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    Are these credible sources? You can't pull evolution from the biology curriculum, it is the curriculum.

    There is a lot of incorrect information on both sides so be weary of what you read.
     

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