Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Kalgareth, Dec 14, 2003.
Only Usama left.
Good news, indeed. At least something positive came from the money we've spent and lives we've lost on this thing.
Yeah, because ending a reign of terror has no value at all
Because the terror still has not ended yet, violence in the streets every day. Martial law, yeah, thats not terror, thats just a friendly puddle of blood and a cute decapitated corpse.
Nobody remembers Afghanistan anymore, it´s not exactly peaceful right now, and the regional "chiefs" are regaining thier power.
It is my belief that american actions in the middle-east are feeding terrorism rather then stopping it.
My belief/opinion, cannot be debated.
we're still in Iraq?
i'm not educated with enough perspectives to have an opinion about the war on terror.
Mud you should get your news from different sources. The violence you are depicting sounds like it is happening all over the country. It does happen but it is not a country in an anarchist state. Electrical power is back up and and more reliable than it was before the war. All the hospitals are open and supplied again. Most people are back living a normal life there.
The terrorist are the problem or as the Iraqis call them, the "foreignors". Especially now that Saddam is caught. We will see a rise in terrorist activity for a few weeks at first but afterwords it will slow done. Unfortunatly Iraq is going to have this problem for a while since it was such a large part of there world. Many were trained in Iraq and it is in the middle of a lot countries that deal with terrorist.
Draco was most likely referring to the hundreds of thousands of dead the the mass graves or the prisons where both adults and children were tortured or used as human test subjects. Then there was Saddam's sons Odai and Usa, read this http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/World/saddam_son_030214.html
A few others for you, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/08/25/wnidal25.xml
If you want more evidence start looking around on your own. There is plenty out there. The world is a much better place now that the Saddam regime is gone.
You seem to take an awfully optimistic approach to it all. You want violence? Have some, and some nice reputable sources too;
20 dead in bombing, CNN; Dec 14
More than 1,000 AVOIDABLE civilian deaths, CNN
Capture of Saddam not likely to stop attacks, AP
Center of U.S. operations under attack, CNN; Dec 12
31 Injured U.S. soldiers, CNN; Dec 9
Almost half of Iraq's new U.S. sponsered army quit
Almost a quarter of all U.S. casualties are non--hostile
Violence likely to increase in 2004
Edit; while not directly not linked to anarchy et al, there is the subsidiary of Halliburton who was given a no-bid contract to supply oil overcharging the U.S government by 61 million dollars. They paid $2.27 a gallon when another company bought oil for $1.16. Yeah, way to go no-bid contracts! YAY!
Go, mud, go!
I never said anything near about wanting violence and I said there will still be issues with terrorist. Iraq has 25 million people in it and we are still at war with the remnents of Saddam's regime. That regime had been in control over the people for decades, they are not going to give it up easily. We are making good headway in Iraq. This weekend was a huge success. It took months of a lot of hard work from a lot of people but we are not done.
I'm just being objective. Compare Iraqs numbers with say California (about same number of people and same size) California had 2392 homicides in 2002. But you didn't hear about each and everyone of those murders. We hear about everyone of the coalition soldiers that die in Iraq so it seems like a lot. We really don't hear any good news coming out of Iraq. Some of it is reported but not widely publicized. So all you have is doom and gloom. If thats how you see it, fine but I don't.
The Iraqi soldiers quiting is a money issue and its being reassessed.
The capturing of Saddam is going to change many issues. The Iraqi people are out from under the possibility that he will return. So speculations made before Saddam was captured are likely to change in many ways.
Whatever, we can play around in our middle eastern sandbox and if we mess up we can just wipe the slate and start over without middle easterners. We can just import some europeans, after the radiation has worn out of course.
You shouldn´t compare that to the US, you have over 10k gun related homicides every year.
Many countries with populations that might be a forth or something of yours can count thier homicides in the hundreds (gun related)
You are a violent nation, compared to most other countries or regions with 25 million people you kill each other off pretty quick.
Ok, according to this, there have been over 20,000 Iraqi injuries as a result of the war and somewhere between 7,935 to 9,766 reported Iraqi CIVILIAN deaths, a good deal more than Cali. I dont want to hear any of that civilian deaths are unavoidable in war crap, in my previous post I linked to a CNN article saying more than 1,000 civilians died (Almost half of Cali's), but could have been avoided.
I partially agree with you on the soldiers quitting the army. However, Iraq needs that army. We are involved, if we are not willing to put up the cash to pay them enough then we should not have been involved from the beginning.
Why am I looking at the doom and gloom? Because right now not only does it out number the bright spots, but Bush tried to sell the world on WMD. I am still waiting.
I agree that the "avoidable " injuries are there. It is a war, there are bombs laying around. This is where priorities come in. You start cleaning up but there are still security issues that have to be delt with. Terrorist and former regime members that need to be caught.
Many of those avoidable injuries unfortunatly are children playing with unexploded ordanance or hind sight checking which is something the human rights group is using to inflate there numbers. Which everone does. There are legitement issues brought up but unfortunently this stuff happens in war. It not like Saddam was looking out for there best interests though.
This though is a far distant statement from your "violence in the streets every day" though. I fill your first statement was unrealistic and simplistic of a situation that is going well for being at war.
The pay that the soldiers were getting was the same that the Iraqi police are getting. Don't let the apparently small amount trick you. There economy is much different than the USAs. $60 there is most likely a far wage.
I spent 28 days in Thailand when I was in the Airforce. We were at Ubon. A small city in the north east. Since there were no US military bases there we lived in town at a hotel. I was given $1400.00 cash to pay for my room and to eat. The average income in Thailand then $600.00 US a year.
$60 there is most likely a far wage.
forums everywhere are errupting with Bush / Iraq debates over this latest development.
be comfortable in your opinions and don't try to force them on others (stfu).
Living under Martial Law from a group whose stated goal is to restore order and a democracy in your country, or living under an insane killer with total power over your life? which would you choose?
The current situation is far from perfect but it is an improvement
Mostly true, but that's a whole other topic.
Kraahl owes me $700
My belief/opinion, cannot be debated.
Hindsight is 20/20, and I find it hard to criticize the Americans for the few(in absolute terms) civilian deaths when they were fighting against a force that used human shields, fake red cross symbols, and placed military materials in hospitals.
your point is?
This just in! US stronghold attacked! Resulting in minor incontinence!
I agree that the US should step up the plans to get out of Iraq, or at least release a comprehensive plan.
dig deep enough anywhere and you will find corruption and stupidity. If you find a viable solution and I will follow you to the ends of the earth.
Bush's main reasons for invading Iraq suck, but I think it's doing a little good.
This thread sucks.
Separate names with a comma.