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revolver

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Jakeman, Feb 1, 2008.

  1. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Excellent movie.

    imdb - http://imdb.com/title/tt0365686/
    wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolver_(film)

    It's a movie that you have to watch several times. It is loaded with subtle metaphors and hidden meanings. It speaks to a philosophy about the malevolent person inside of everyone that controls and deceives the host. But this underlying philosophy is framed in the context of a "wise guy" action movie which makes it both fun and thought provoking.

    I was able to personally identify with the phisolophy of the movie. First, it applies the philosophy to the con game which appeals to the forum troll in me that tries to manipulate and prod my opponents into destroying themselves. Second, it applies the philosophy to the idea of self-discovery in order to get control of your own life which appeals to the part of me that constantly questions my own actions and motivations.

    I recommend you watch it once, then read the wiki page for clarification, then watch it a couple more times.
     
  2. SpocKirk

    SpocKirk Forum Moderator and Donator

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    Luc Besson and Guy Richie together, sounds good already. I'll check it out as soon as I can.
     
  3. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    I recommend this movie to everyone but so far no one has seen it. :cry:
     
  4. Calendryll

    Calendryll MSC Commander and Donator

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    Interesting. I totally missed this thread somehow and don't even remember seeing any previews for this movie. After watching the trailer I'm of a mind to run out and rent it. It appears to have a pretty divided fan base according to reviews. I'll give my 2 cents after I see it.

    (I believe I remember a few of my friends saying this was one of those "must own" movies.)
     
  5. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Yeah people are split about this movie and it got a lukewarm reception in theaters. I think some people watch it expecting a mindless wise guy movie but then it gets intellectual and they get turned off. Guy Richie himself said this is an intellectual movie first and foremost. The philosophy of the movie is also offensive to people who can't tolerate being questioned which is what the movie is about.
     
  6. SpocKirk

    SpocKirk Forum Moderator and Donator

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    I saw it right after I posted. Great movie!
     
  7. Calendryll

    Calendryll MSC Commander and Donator

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    This really is an excellent movie. I'm glad you posted that wiki page because I would never have caught all of the Kabbalah references (well, any of them for that matter). The excerpts at the end were a nice addition as well.
     
  8. Wiezzen

    Wiezzen Peasant

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    Just finished Revolver last night, it was an excellent movie. I do believe that I understand it even thought I've only watched it once. To me, the movie was kind of like a puzzle, there were many important scenes and quotes in the movies that were all peices of the puzzle. When you find the link between them, it makes sense to you, however, not the kind of sense you could put into words to explain to another person, they'd have to watch it for themselves.

    I believe that many people who watch this movie won't understand it because they refuse to question themselves about how much they're in control. One quote in the movie that should have alot of attention is "The greatest opponent is in the last place you'd look".

    My favorite scene in the movie was the last chess game between Abbie and Jake. Jake had previously beaten Abbie in all the chess games by feeding him pieces leading him to believe he was control and was therefor able to get a checkmate every game. As it turns out, it was Abbie who was leading Jake to believe he was in control by thinking he had led Abbie to believe he was in control. Abbie was one step ahead of Jake, playing him.
     
  9. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    I have become increasingly aware of a tendency of people to presume my own self interest in everything I do. It's quite distressing. It's like being on everyone's mental block list because they think I'm ****ing with them to pursue my own ends.

    The situation is very Revolver-esque. Sam Gold is shown to exhibit the same behavior. Everyone is presumed to be self-invested because he is.
     
  10. smack

    smack Peasant and Donator

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    It's more efficient to assume everyone is self-interested because most people are. I have blacklisted a lot of people as unreliable sources of information. My blacklist is more granular than individuals though. You're on my blacklist for a few things. I don't think I know anyone who isn't in my blacklist on some issue.

    "What's your game!"

    I constantly evaluate the quality of information based on authority and conflict of interest. This seems reasonable to me for many issues. Sometimes I apply this to issues where it's unsuitable which sucks.
     
  11. smack

    smack Peasant and Donator

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    Maybe we could do a case study on some specific event where this happened to you. You could present the situation and all context of the situation. We'd need something that didn't involve anyone on the forum so we could all be conflict-of-interest free.

    You can use anything which has happened with me if you want. I'm highly aware how flawed of a person I am. :)

    *edit*
    We'd need something where people wouldn't want to discuss the issue your conversation was about. We'd need an issue where you clearly couldn't have self interest. Maybe we could all agree to agree you couldn't have self interest before discussing the thing.

    *edit*
    Now that I think about it maybe the people involved in the "misunderstanding" should be excluded from discussing the issue. Like we could take your issue and discuss it and you'd agree to not enter the conversation. If the issue was about me I'd have to abstain as well.

    *EDIT!*
    There would need to be rules. I'm thinking these.

    -No repercussion for anything said in case study thread.
    -People case study is about are not allowed to participate.
    -All must agree about setup before discussion begins. All must agree about impossibility of self interest of issue BEFORE discussion can begin. (this is the hard one I think)
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2009
  12. smack

    smack Peasant and Donator

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociological_perspective

    1/2 page of information here. I think it'd help people understand why I'd propose something like this.

    Also, the setup for this idea is everything. If anyone is interested it shouldn't be rushed. Take time and set it up carefully.

    *edit*
    Oh yeah. DON'T do this if Jakeman doesn't want to. That would rude, and it wouldn't work out anyways if he wasn't willing. :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2009
  13. Calendryll

    Calendryll MSC Commander and Donator

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    Everything we do is in the hopes of self interest. Perhaps you are just more blatant about it than most of us? Smack is right - without some sort of example it's hard to see where you are coming from with this. The situation could be a lot more simple than others believing you are furthering your own self interest. It could be you just need to watch what you say - people become increasingly offended when you expose certain truths they wish to deny. I don't know the situation though so I could be way off base.
     
  14. lost

    lost Peasant

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    I see you doing what you want to do and not doing what you don't want to do and making no apologies for it, when most would invent excuses or platitudes to lessen the sting.

    And yet, simultaneously, you're as open and sincere as one can ever hope to be. There is nothing malevolently manipulative about you in all the "f***ing around" you do. Perhaps self preservation, but who could fault one for that?
     
  15. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    "If you try to destroy him to save them, they'll destroy you to save him."

    -Avi

    It's strange that my main point centers around the misjudgment of others, but now I sense that the focus is shifting to me. There is a related observation here, and that is that people overwhelmingly have a tendency to look without, not within, when engaging issues.

    It is as if I were to say, "no you are wrong about me." And my opponent was to say, "what did you do to cause me to make this mistake?" It's like we are fixing the input to achieve the desired output when we should be fixing the software that generated the wrong output. It's ass backwards. As the root user, no one wants to fix their own software.

    I suppose correcting the input is an option, but that means I would be manipulating everyone to get the desired response. It's like lying to some one in order to avoid a negative reaction. And while I am very good at it, I don't like manipulating people. I would rather be misjudged.

    The simple lesson I am trying to communicate here is that, as a matter of course, you shouldn't presume people's motivations or intentions. It is both wrong and exploitable.
     
  16. OsIriS

    OsIriS Peasant

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    The software you speak of is language. All language is manipulation in that it is just as important how you say things as what you say. This becomes especially true in a medium such as this when all we have are words (and a few choice emoticons) to communicate with. Semantics, in this case, becomes the most important thing we can study. There are just certain types of expression that don't come across in the right way.

    But, we are who we are, and you shouldn't change who you are (which really is impossible to begin with) just to please other people. I say screw em. The best thing you can do is avoid offending people (and please don't worry about offending people in the internet -- 60% of the people on most message boards are looking to be offending, or begging for an argument, so screw them too).
     
  17. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    I have failed in explaining my idea. I am sorry for confusing you.
     
  18. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Revolver was originally released in the UK in 2005. It was adapted for a US audience in 2007. I realized that the version I watched was the US version. I also discovered that the UK version is slightly longer. So I just watched the UK version.

    The UK version is about 3-4 minutes longer than the US version, but the content is identical. After careful observation it seems that in the US version they just trimmed a few seconds from transitions and silent moments here and there. The result is a slightly faster paced movie with nothing left out.

    My copy of the UK version also has a few extra minutes at the end with some doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, etc talking about the formidable opponent that is the ego. Most people do not understand the concepts in this movie so I think audiences might have a confused reaction to this bookend segment at the end.

    Everyone who claims to understand the movie completely fails to explain it back to me. I am considering creating a scene-by-scene explanation of the movie complete with screenshots. There is a lot of depth that people don't see and my own summary explanations do not seem to resonate with people. A scene-by-scene explanation of the movie would provide a sort of captioned demonstration which might be helpful for people.
     
  19. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Here is a youtube clip of the climax of the movie for anyone who hasn't seen it yet:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3vM1PcrV0k

    And because people have such a hard time understanding the movie, here is an explanation of this scene:

    - Jake enters the home of Macha. They are enemies IRL.
    - Jake grovels before Macha, apologizes to him, and makes a huge monetary donation in Macha's name. The point of this is for Jake to betray his ego. You can hear Jake battling with his ego in Macha's bedroom.
    - then Jake decides to take the elevator instead of the stairs because he hates elevators, and the ego hides in places you don't want to go.
    - while in the elevator Jake makes contact with his ego and battles it. Jake wins the battle with his ego.
    - when the elevator door opens Macha is superimposed on top of the spot where Jake's ego used to be. At this point Jake is seeing only Macha's ego, free from deception and presentation. Having just beat his own ego, Jake is unaffected by threats from Macha's ego.

    By conquering his own ego Jake is no longer controlled.
     
  20. Wiezzen

    Wiezzen Peasant

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    I'd like to meet somebody who could explain the whole movie. I'm certain I understood the movie, but putting it into words is difficult.
     

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