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Patch 1.9 soon

Discussion in 'MSC Clan' started by Calendryll, Nov 15, 2005.

  1. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Changes I'd like to see (off the top of my head, noting that I have PvP in mind):

    Polymorph no longer heals; in fact DOTs should remain in effect while polymorphed. (Just like every other class's CC spells.) Reduced casting time would be nice, but now I'm just getting greedy.

    Pyroblast needs a buff. For twice the casting time it ought to do significantly more damage than Fireball, and it doesn't (in fairness, the DOT component is better: 268/12 vs. 72/8, but that's dispellable). Up the mana cost and/or cooldown to compensate.

    Invisibility. Always been a mage staple in Warcraft games. I don't buy the argument that it's too hard to balance an invisible damage dealer, since the game already has one.

    Boosts to mana shield. Maybe just including higher ranks through drops would work. 540 dmg absorbed is nothing to a epic gear rogue who can backstab for 1800.
     
  2. MisterHalleck

    MisterHalleck Peasant

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    -Invisibility is not broken for rogues because they are melee, and can sometimes be seen by both mobs and players before getting too close. Invisible mages would break the class.

    -Polymorph is crowd control; even though sheeped units would stay sheeped in WC3, doing the same in WoW would also be an unfair buff to mages. Imagine, you could sheep someoene in a duel and then have as long as you wanted to DoT them to death. Another potential class-breaker.

    The problem with the game is that people bitch and moan if their class does not have an uber DPS spec. People should realize that DPS is only one part of the game and that it will not win you anything but a wipe in most instances; get to know the special abilities that your class has and take advantage of them.
     
  3. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    I didn't say it was broken for rogues, but my suggestion is not out of the blue. It was in the beta for mages and Blizz has talked about bringing it back. Obviously I wouldn't expect mages to be able to range cast ad infinitum and also be invisible. I'm more thinking of a way to escape and hide. Make it a high level talent in the expansion so mages would have to sacrifice some DPS talents to get it, make it breakable by movement or casting. There are ways it can be balanced.

    I think you misunderstood me. Of course poly should be able to break. What I meant is they should remove the hit point regen that comes with being sheeped. Fear, seduce, sleep, etc. don't cause my hit points to come back, why should polymorph? This would of course require some kind of cooldown on the spell to prevent an unstoppable poly-nuke-poly-nuke chain.

    I think I play my class pretty well, thank you very much. In PvE I think we are well balanced. PvP at level 60 is a different story, IMHO, but maybe it's just me.
     
  4. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    When you start seeing huge dissecting posts you know a thread is going downhill. You almost don't have to read the post to know. :(

    Class balance is a religious debate. Indirect attacks are lame. Stop it.
     
  5. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    At the moment mages are vastly inferior due to resists gear. One thing that Blizzard is doing to rebalance this is to have -resist gear which doesn't only profits mages but makes warlocks even more broken than they are now (with CoE they can take you down to negative resists). Blizzard should give mages a -resist talent to offset some of the items they introduce since a warrior with 350 FR would make a fire mage completely obsolete (same with other resist gear). Basically, any class that stacks up on resist gear will basically own a mage without sacraficing much (as evident by MC/BWL/ZG loots).
     
  6. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    Not gonna happen. Main reason why polymorph is a CC spell and other classes aren't considered CC (besides priest) is because CC is meant to control a mob. Fear doesn't control mobs, it only aggros more mobs. You can sheep a mob and a patrol can walk right on it and not aggro whereas a feared mob will aggro any other mobs that's close enough. Priest's shackle, rogue's sap, and warlock's banish are the only other CC in the game and damage immediately takes them out of CC (except banish where the mob don't take damage what-so-ever). Also sap can only be done before combat whereas polymorph can be done any time and shackle/banish only works on undead/elementals so it's invalid in PvP.

    Very good chance that this will be put back in. A rep from Blizzard stated that a mage is designed to avoid taking damage so invisibility is an option if they restrain it so that a mage cannot cast any spells while they are invisible. It would be the same as being Ice Block except that you can move and are not invulnerable to damage (meaning that if a DoT is put on you before you become invisible, you still take the damage even though you are invisible). This way it would still balance out the game some since you don't have a surprise attack like a rogue and you can still avoid damage if you have too much aggro (just like rogues can go into stealth or feint when they have too much aggro).

    Mana shield works fine as it is. Blizzard don't design classes to be PvP oriented (only races) and most mobs do physical damage whereas every class at least one spell damage (besides warriors i think). Mages are meant to be range dps so you should not be within melee range at all (reason why mages have blink and frost nova so that we can gain distance). Note that Mana shield only works for physical attacks, it ignores spell damage because Blizzard don't want to repeat the mistake they did with D2.
     
  7. Autolycus

    Autolycus Forum Moderator

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    yeah, since armor, block, dodge, and parry dont mitigate shit for melee damage. right?

    curses can no longer drop you into negatives in 1.9

    resists caps at 300, and a warrior with 300 FR? did you lose your frost bolt key?

    if you know of some magical way to get high enough resists to matter without sacrificing much, please tell me. i have a lot of trouble with mages due to roots/snares/blink/3000 damage frost bolts.
     
  8. Calendryll

    Calendryll MSC Commander and Donator

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    Amen. Mages always seem to be a major pain in the arse in BG. All classes have their problems. I agree mages need some work but not much.
     
  9. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    I'm comparing mages to other casters (i.e. warlocks/shadow priests). What you are talking about is an epic geared mage. Compare that with a non-epic geared mage and you'll see a huge difference. Equipment don't scale well for mages as they do other casters reason being that we get +int gear/items while other casters get +stam gear.

    Using frostbolt for a fire mage is actually worst than running away. Like Firemane says, he uses Rank 1 Frostbolts and don't even have the Rank 10 hotkey'd because he never or hardly even use it. It's the same with all/most mages, we just don't hotkey all our spells because there isn't enough room.
    Reason we hotkey Rank 1 is because (i) it cost less mana, (2) faster casting time (1.5 sec), (3) just for snare/slow effect.

    There is only one possible way to do a 3k frostbolt and that's with Arcane Power + Talisman of Ephemeral Power + Zandalar Hero Charm and a lot of epic +dmg gear on top of that (meaning you have to decked out in all epic gear in order to do that).

    Point is that a normal (green/blue equipped) mage would lose to a warrior with only 50-100 fire resist which they shouldn't because the rock/paper/scissors concept is: mage > warriors, warriors > hunters, hunters > mage or casters > melee, melee > ranged dps , ranged dps > casters.

    Right now it's more like(assuming equally geared): warriors > hunters, hunters > mages, mages and warriors depends (mage crit = mage win, mage don't crit = 50-50). I dueled against fellow guildie warriors and I'd win 50-50, I dueled non-guildie warriors with blues and some epics and I win 95%, I dueled poorly equipped hunters and I win 100%, I dueled decently equipped hunters (BS + blues only) and I lose 75%, I dueled guildie hunters and I lose 100%.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2005
  10. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Generalizations are dangerous in these debates. Most all balance issues have multiple perspectives and scenarios to consider. There is an exception for every generalization, and that isn't conclusive for either side.

    I am content to say that I am happy with my mage in most situations. That is all I care about and is the only position I am willing to take.
     
  11. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Oh I don't think they need much either, just some added survivability would be nice when I'm getting ganked by the FA goon squad. (while whatever PUG pally I got stuck with forgets where his heal hotkey is and no one seems to remember to take out the F'ing undead priest first).

    I remember Blizz saying that PvP is supposed to be a rock-paper-scissors kind of thing, which is why it's hard to generalize as J said. I just know that I'm almost always the first or second target in team PvP, and I'd like some added survivability. (Maybe I should just spec frost.)
     
  12. Autolycus

    Autolycus Forum Moderator

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    I have 30 FR in my PvP gear, and that's only because of sulfuras. I'd like to see a warrior with 50-100 that can kill anything BUT a fire mage and even then they'd probably still lose if the mage has a lot of experience vs warriors. with intercept on a 30 second cooldown and my ability to charge removed the second i enter combat.. i dont have much choice but to go for the mage first. they're the biggest threat on the field, no matter what other classes are there.
     
  13. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Warriors can't charge when in combat? Why do they always charge me twice then?
     
  14. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    The second time it's intercept. I think the warrior has to switch stances after charging, but intercept is useable in combat. Frost nova + blink is your best friend there, plus I usually have my shield up.

    I know WHY I'm the first target, it just gets a little frustrating sometimes to see the horde team run through 6 of my teammates to get to me standing 30 yards away. On the other hand, it has made me a better PvPer, although I still need work. (I don't practice duel enough.) Ironically, once I run out of mana it would be better for you NOT to kill me unless my GY is far away.

    1-v-1, I'll usually beat warriors (Agar says, "O rly?" Ya rly.). On the other hand, druids and warlocks (if they have felhunter) mean big trouble for me. Hunters and rogues seem to be a toss up, somewhat gear and crit dependent, and on who gets the first move in. Don't get me started on shamans.
     
  15. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    You can frost nova while stunned?
     
  16. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    No, you have to wait for the stun to break. Hence why I have my shield up so I can survive long enough to use nova and get some distance.

    Hey just found this as evidence that shamans are overpowered. Look at the last line in the conversation.
     
  17. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Oh, I usually blink out of stun only to get intercepted.
     
  18. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Yeah I've tried that too, with the same results. Now I usually just wait for the stun to break on it's own. BTW, after you've kited the warrior, the next move has to be polymorph, but try save your PoM for a big spell.

    Keep in mind that I generally consider myself to suck in PvP, so I could be leading you completely astray.
     
  19. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    Like I posted above, according to Blizzard, mages should have a significant advantage vs warriors because we are designed to defeat them. Against other classes however, we suck. But what I was trying to say is that against a warrior that stacks up on resist gear, we are almost useless as they will resist almost all our spells. A warrior could sacrafice maybe 20-30 Stam and some Str to get enough resist gear to effectively kill a mage (fire mostly, frost is a different story since Blizzard haven't concentrated a dungeon around frost). This is the main reason why fire mages are switching to frost; simply because fire mages get own by a class that they are designed to dominate. But once again, if Blizzard does design a dungeon around frost, frost mages will experience the same thing that fire mages are going through. If you look at all the end-game gear, you will see fire resists on it but you won't see frost resist or very little frost resist.

    So now ask yourself, why did that mage crit you with a 3000 frostbolt instead of using fire? It's because he figured that with end-game gear, you'd have decent enough fire resist to make him obsolete and thus have to respec to frost in order to win. Gear = can change any time and won't cost you any more than you initially invested; respec = must spend gold every time and can't change unless you have a class trainer with you in your backpack.

    So why doesn't a fire mage use frost bolts? It's the same thing as asking a hunter to melee when he's spec'd for Marksmanship or a rogue that's spec'd for backstab/ambush to not stealth and fight like a combat rogue. Yes, they can do that but they know that there's no chance to win at all.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2005
  20. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    That was a joke. I'm pretty sure they play all classes though. Look at the conversation. The skills they're discussing between each other are rogue talents.

    "Everyone at Blizzard plays a shaman." lol. That's just funny.

    Hint to Jake: Intercept is a spell. You can silence them so they can't use it. But once that silence wears off they have access to it again. So just make sure your blink is up again.
    Typical thing I usually do vs warriors:
    1) Warrior charge, I blink and silence immediately ( or wait for stun and use frost nova).
    2) Sheep them immediately after silence since it's not on same timer or take 6-8 step away and sheep if I used nova.
    3) Move away and wait for hamstring to wear off. Re-sheep them again after 8 seconds (sheep is only 15 seconds max vs another player and sometimes breaks early; remember that you can only sheep 3 times before they become immune to it).
    4) Start casting fireball/frostbolt when Blink's timer has counted down to 4 sec. If you cast fireball, follow immediately with Rank 1 frostbolt for the snare. Follow by Scorch/Fireblast.
    5) Warrior will intercept when he gets within range so be prepared to Blink. After Blink turn around and cast Cone of Cold to slow him even further or use frost nova. If you're frost build, use nova follow by your combo; fire build use Cone then nova to gain distance and repeat.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2005

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