Portal   Forum   Members   Market   Gallery   Events

need / greed loot fallacy

Discussion in 'MSC Clan' started by Jakeman, Feb 27, 2007.

  1. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    Messages:
    25,758
    Likes Received:
    27
    Market Rating:
    16
    Standard /rand 100 loot systems use need / greed, where each player gets one need and one greed. Need gets first priority, then greed if no one else needs the item. There is no weighted priority given for past runs or other contributions like in dkp systems.

    A disturbing number of players try to use their greed first when no one else needs the item. This is clearly a broken application of the loot system since it enables one person to get 2 items they want while some one else who needed one of those items gets nothing. The motivation is clearly selfish in nature and the result unfair.

    Pox on people who pull this shit. Even the simplest of loot systems are contorted by greedy people to serve their own selfish interests. Even more annoying than the contortion is the dishonesty of those who do it. As a group leader I would almost be willing to let some one use their greed first if they were to openly admit that they were trying to scam two needs.

    It's a fractal for many real life legal issues.
     
  2. Gilgamesh

    Gilgamesh MSC Footman

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2000
    Messages:
    1,759
    Likes Received:
    9
    Market Rating:
    0
    But in a party, the Greed is set to a roll system, so they aren't "getting" the item just on the greed alone. If everyone selected Greed, then it's fair if they actually won it, eh?

    Selecting Need should be done as little as possible. If you have a 1 need per run rule, thats fine... I usually post a "I need this, any one else?" message before selecting "need"...

    Obviously, the items I have seen in no way compare to the items that you are seeing on your runs, so the stakes are alot lower for runs I am on..
    :)
     
  3. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    Messages:
    25,758
    Likes Received:
    27
    Market Rating:
    16
    There is some semantical confusion here. I am not talking about need / greed buttons that you click, but rather I am talking about classes of loot. Have you ever been in a group that gave you one need and one greed? Here is an example of the fallacy:

    - group kills a boss
    - boss drops items A and B
    - person 1 wants both A and B, person 2 wants only item B
    - leader takes rolls on item A. No one wants it except person 1, so person 1 announces that he is using his greed roll on item A. Person 1 rolls and wins by default because he is the only person that wants it.
    - leader takes rolls on item B. Both person 1 and 2 use their need rolls. Person 1 wins item B with a higher roll.
    - now person 1 has items A and B and person 2 has nothing. Unfair.

    Normally items that you want are considered need, and you are forced to use your need roll first on such items. Greed items are generally disenchanted before they are given out. If person 1 had been forced to use his need roll on item A then person 2 would have gotten item B which would have been fair. But person 1 scammed the system by using his lower priority greed roll first and saving his high priority roll to win yet another item he wants.
     
  4. Wulf

    Wulf MSC Knight and Donator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    4,856
    Likes Received:
    10
    Market Rating:
    0
    Honestly, I wouldn't run anything with a group with that policy. Its stupid, and beyond that, if you need something, Need it, if not greed it, if there is a Disenchanter in the group, everyone who doesn't Need it passes so they can disenchant and have everyone roll on the shard. Thats the staple of Pugs on Sargaras at least.
     
  5. Autolycus

    Autolycus Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2000
    Messages:
    3,410
    Likes Received:
    20
    Market Rating:
    0
    yeah that seems like a pretty stupid loot system. if it's a "greed" item, everyone should have a shot at the shard/vendoring.
     
  6. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2004
    Messages:
    550
    Likes Received:
    39
    Market Rating:
    0
    That's why I tend to only run with guild. I rarely run with PUGs unless I don't care about the items and only want rep. I pretty much have everything I want from the dungeons except the epic BOP patterns and the only items that I want/need is in Karahzan,Gruul's Lair, or Heroic runs (none of which a PUG is capable of, yet).

    That loot rule that you describe is quite stupid. Our rules are simple for PUGs: Greed all greens and only Need blues if you want the item. Otherwise all pass and if there's a DE'er then it gets DE'd (shards rolled for after run for ppl that didn't get anything) otherwise /random 100 and winner takes as vendor (no limit). However since I'm an enchanter, there's no such thing as /random 100 if I'm in the group.

    Honestly I could care less about the items from dungeons (besides the epic patterns and rare bop enchants). Those are only minor upgrades at best. I'm looking forward to Black Temple and Gruul's Lair drop more and we'll probably be using a dkp system for that so it wouldn't matter anyways.
     
  7. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    2,586
    Likes Received:
    47
    Market Rating:
    0
    Cue discussion about DKP system fallacies... :p

    It's up to the leader to decide whether the group is rolling need or greed. If I call for NEED rolls, I'm counting as your need item even if you are the only one who rolls. If Player 1 tried to call it his greed roll because he was the only roller, as leader my reply would be, "Um... no."
     
  8. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    Messages:
    25,758
    Likes Received:
    27
    Market Rating:
    16
    I'm in a group right now where 4 of the 5 people all believe in using greed first on items you want. I bitched about it and they put me in charge of loot. =\
     
  9. Wulf

    Wulf MSC Knight and Donator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    4,856
    Likes Received:
    10
    Market Rating:
    0
    Thats easy, just say "Hit need if you need on BoP/BoE and Greed of you don't Need on BoE's, Pass on BoP's if you don't need so I can Disenchant"
     
  10. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    Messages:
    25,758
    Likes Received:
    27
    Market Rating:
    16
    In my latest adventures, I take this discussion to the Hyjal forum:

    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=85381331&sid=1

    As usual, it has turned into another hostile debate with me trying to keep things on track.

    I think the core problem with debates like this is that people artificially polarize the issue by necessarily making me their enemy just because I am arguing an opposing point of view. Then they reason that they must necessarily disagree with anything I say and attack my person because I am their enemy. Then the debate becomes one sided with me doing nothing but destroying poor arguments and personal attacks while trying desperately to preserve the original topic.
     
  11. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    2,586
    Likes Received:
    47
    Market Rating:
    0
    The lessons, as always:

    1. Don't PUG.
    2. Don't bother trying to find rational forum posters. A good strategist knows not to waste his resources on unwinnable battles.
     
  12. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    Messages:
    25,758
    Likes Received:
    27
    Market Rating:
    16
    Hot damn. People are threatening to alienate me and the whole guild. This is some heated stuff. I am still owning though. I am not even trolilng it, people are getting themselves worked up.
     
  13. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    2,586
    Likes Received:
    47
    Market Rating:
    0
    That said, some of your "opponents" have made valid observations. You do have a tendency to sling the 50-cent words around when they are not necessarily the best choices. I realize your choice of vocabulary is not the point of the thread, but it is worth noting that some of the distraction from your discussion is caused by your own sesquipedality. (see, I can do it too :D)

    Delivery is as important and relevant (if not moreso) as message. A medicine that cannot be absorbed through intestinal lining will do the patient no good if given orally, no matter how potent a drug it may be. Similarly, a lexicon that would impress a college professor will be lost on "average joes," much less posters on an internet video game forum, most of whom can't be bothered to type out such simple words as "are" and "you." Did you really think you were addressing the cream of academia? You must know your audience if you expect to engage them in meaningful conversation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2007
  14. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    Messages:
    25,758
    Likes Received:
    27
    Market Rating:
    16
    I talk like that in real life discussions too. The words are not forced. I ran my posts by my brother and he could understand perfectly with all of the big words. The words are appropriate and take away nothing from my arguments.

    The same people who attack my writing style also admit that they understand my arguments, as I'm sure you do. So this is not relevant.
     
  15. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    2,586
    Likes Received:
    47
    Market Rating:
    0
    If I may borrow your technique...

    I'm sure you do. I did not intend any implication that you are artificially enhancing your language. (See how awkward that last sentence is? Yes, you understand it, yes it's grammatically correct, and the words are used correctly, but it's not a good sentence.)

    "Your brother" is a small sample. No valid conclusion can be drawn from such a limited data set.

    But they do. Again, delivery is important.

    Delivery of an argument is as relevant as the argument itself. This is "almost so truistic as to be undebateable."

    I do understand your arguments, but found them to be overly complex and awkward in their delivery. Like it or not, this subtracts from their validity, if only in perception. But perception matters.

    http://www.collisiondetection.net/mt/archives/2006/04/study_using_big.html
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2007
  16. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    Messages:
    25,758
    Likes Received:
    27
    Market Rating:
    16
    Excellent reply. Very effective. It reminds me of me.

    Let's RP debate. :D I will play my average opponent and reply to you now:


    your clearly a moron. did you buy ur acct on ebay?you have just proven your idiocy and i pitty any moron in ur guild . stfu this post ends the thread you lose.


    I think the bigger problem is my opponents. Forum trolls enter my thread and act like this, then people start looking to blame things like my writing style for the poor reception, a cycle that is almost selfjustifying. Replies from such lowly people do not necessarily invalidate my posts. I agree that it is possible to go overboard with writing, but there is a bigger picture here that we are missing.
     
  17. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    2,586
    Likes Received:
    47
    Market Rating:
    0
    I m no e-bayer my gild luvs me we can 1-shot KZ and I have 5/5 T4. U r a noob lvl 1 alt with no ballz 2 post on ur main so ur post = 0/10 u lose.

    P.S. my gild will wtfpwn u guyz in teh arena b1tches.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2007
  18. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    2,586
    Likes Received:
    47
    Market Rating:
    0
    The problem is exactly your opponents. The WoW forums are a cesspool of idiocy on most days, so while I read them for the comedic value, very rarely will I participate simply because it would be a waste of my time.

    The mage forums are particularly egregious in this regard, dominated by a handful of real asshats who prevent any productivity by polluting every decent thread that comes along. It's always the same 4 or 5 posters too I've noticed.

    Finally, if I may get back on point, while I have witnessed such loot problems as you describe, I don't think it is as widespread a problem as you do. (But then I tend not to run with players I don't know.) It seems there are others that share my opinion, and this could also be be a reason why your thread has not been well received.
     
  19. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    Messages:
    25,758
    Likes Received:
    27
    Market Rating:
    16
    I can't resist participating, even if it is clear that the discussion cannot be productive. :(

    I have wondered about that. I see this problem in as many as 50% of PUGs... where some one wants an item and they say, "I'm gonna use my greed." Yet other people like you say otherwise.
     
  20. Fujin

    Fujin MSC Knight

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    Market Rating:
    0
    I love it when you use big words it makes me think of an old nun
     

    Attached Files:


Hitometer: 53,842,897 since 1995