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Discussion in 'MSC Clan' started by Lurk, Jul 17, 2006.

  1. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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  2. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    I went on a paid loot run with Casual last Sunday (BWL). Nothing dropped for me.

    They cleared BWL in 2.5 hours and most of the loot was disenchanted. It was one of the easiest clears I have ever done, raid instance or not. Deadmines was harder at lvl 20 than BWL at lvl 60. The only difficulty is in organizing a group of 40 people who are "nonretarded," in the immortal words of Digo. Blizzard's loot system is backwards.
     
  3. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    You actually paid for a loot run?? You should just wait a few months for Burning Crusade to come out since loot from the first dungeon will be equivalent to T2/T3 gear and I'm assuming that it's a 5-man instance from the list of dungeons. I would never pay for loot runs even though it's relatively easy to get gold.
     
  4. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Why not? I have lots of gold.

    I don't subscribe to the "wait just a little longer" arguments. There is always new content in this game. You can either wait forever or play the game. The "old" gear will also help me to be more effective in the new dungeons... I don't want to be underequipped for new content such that I can't pull my own weight in a group.

    There has been no official release date on the expansion, though the majority are content to cite preorder dates as fact. I preordered the original game for delivery in 2003... um yeah.
     
  5. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    And here we have the crux of the debate between raiders and non-raiders.

    I don't entirely disagree with you, but it should be noted that you ran the instance with 35 people from a guild who've had it on farm status for months, which comes from repetition, repetition, and more repetition. No one runs Deadmines that many times, much less with a party of five players all at the intended level.

    Casual can do BWL in their sleep now, much the same way MSC can wreck UBRS when we all get together. I guarantee they didn't breeze through in 2.5 hours the first thirty times they ran it. It's also worth noting that they have AQ40 and Naxx gear now, unless they were running with a bunch of alts. That helps a lot.
     
  6. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Perhaps I am more disturbed by the existence of raid twinks than anything else. There are people who join raid guilds and go from green to tier 2 in the course of a few weeks with minimal investment. It is a question of deservedness, where I feel cheated by the results after having invested so much time and effort in developing all aspects of my character.

    Of course, this is my own prideful decision to proceed like this. With my current gear and skill I could certainly get into one of the big raid guilds, I just choose not to. I am the antitwink.
     
  7. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    How is farming your way into a Casual loot run any different? I'd argue that's closer to twinking than actually joining a raid guild and using the gear so obtained to help that guild with content that's not on farm status.

    You pay with gold. Malantis "pays" for being twinked by helping Casual progress in Naxx.
     
  8. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    You cite two examples using different forms of payment, both of which are not twinking because compensation is made. The comparative worth of different forms of payment is not important to my point, only the fact that payment is made which I argue is not a twink.

    If we are to argue comparative worth, I might make the point that Casual is hosting paid loot runs primarily to pay for Naxx repair costs and tier 3 quests for their members. In that way, I am also helping their progression through Naxx.

    Also, Malantis was well-geared before joining Casual. He isn't a good example of a twink because he could actually carry his own weight.
     
  9. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    How common are "raid twinks" then, if neither of those examples is applicable? People showing up in greens, getting T2 gear, and then quitting the guild is that much of an issue? Haven't seen it myself, but I am still fairly new to the raid scene. Note that I am not talking about attrition, which affects all guilds eventually.

    You are always talking about how fast Malantis got geared up to T2, so he seemed like a relevant example. His ability before being in Casual is immaterial. Obviously he is skilled or he wouldn't still be there.

    Nor was I saying that his method of obtaining gear is any more or less valid than yours. My point was simply that in order to proceed to endgame instances when you've not been in a raid guild from the start is to join them on their "twinking" runs and get geared up for the stuff that they are currently working on. There have been no new small party instances since Dire Maul, and newly formed raid guilds are rare and ephemeral.

    As for Firemane, she had the advantage of having gear on par with MC gear when joining Bellum, from doing the Dungeon 2 stuff and what little gear she obtained from doing HGA runs. I was not going to be able to progress her any farther without getting into the raid instances. Am I a little bummed that I didn't "learn" Ragnaros or the first three bosses of BWL? Yeah, but I'll get over it. I bought the game well after release, so by the time I got to Scholo/Strath/DM, they were well known. Aside from the Dungeon 2 stuff, my experiences with Bellum are the first with groups in which all the players are seeing the same content for the first time. It's the current state of the game.
     
  10. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    I currently have 2 semantical debates going on 2 other forums. I don't have time for a 3rd.

    Define "twink" how you will. I think the general idea is obvious enough, as is the negative connotation. Did the player earn their items? Did they give back to the cause? Did they exploit the help of others? And so forth...

    I am not implicating anyone here or in Casual.
     
  11. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Fair enough. I agree with that definition of twink. I just don't think the phenomenon is as wide spread as you think it is, and this is why:

    Raid guilds that can clear enough content to put players in full Tier 2 generally won't keep someone who doesn't contribute.

    Conversely, raid guilds that accept everyone just to get the warm bodies needed to fill a raid generally can't clear the content required to get full Tier 2.
     
  12. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    IMO what you're doing is the same as buying MC BoEs from the AH and Casual is the one selling. Since MC takes much longer and BoEs aren't as common, it's just more efficient to sell spots in BWL. So what you're really doing is Ebaying again. So actually you're not really earning your items you're just buying/twinking. Gold is easily made in this game (heck it's more efficient if you buy it off a gold selling website than farm it yourself). Items aren't as easily earned and you're not really earning your items, you're just buying them. For all we know, you could be hiding in some corner while they down the bosses and then get the loot if it drops. What I'm trying to say here is using the gold you have (whether you earned it legitimately or not) to obtain items doesn't amount to you earning the items therefore making you a twink. Heck if I wanted to equip my 6 alts with T1/T2 I could easily do it just by buying 10000g off a site and it would only cost me a day of actual work.
     
  13. Ellusion

    Ellusion MSC Knight

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    If I had the gold I would pay Casual to take me along to AQ40 and BWL just to see the content since there is no way that I could every go to these dungeons and the loot is just a bonus. Sure I could wait until BC and level 70 but that would still need a group of 20+ and unretarded PUGs. So I don't see anything wrong with J paying a raiding guild to see content or obtain items that you pay the same $15 dollars a month as raiders but cant access for various reasons. As long as you made the gold legitimately, something I probably would never be able to but to people like J that can all the power to them, to me it's the same as 1-59 where you buy greens and blues off the AH.
     
  14. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    I earn my gold, and I carry my own weight in their raids (except for cromag, their instructions didn't prepare me as well as the initial experience).

    It is basically a nonmember tax, because that is the only difference between me and the other people in the raid. My gear and skill are up to par, and I supply all of my own consumables and fire res gear including onyxia cloak and flarecore items which I crafted with my own funds (no banks involved, unlike most raiders). I am not a twink.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2006
  15. OsIriS

    OsIriS Peasant

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    Honestly, other than begging, does it really matter? Why are people so uptight?
     
  16. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Because I am better than you. :retard:
     
  17. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    I've played with J enough to be able to guarantee he's not doing this. Much of what I learned about playing the class I did by watching Jaden. (Of course, I've perfected the techniques on my own. :p)

    Besides, being in the host guild doesn't necessarily preclude hiding in a corner either.

    Gold selling websites are irrelevant to this discussion, because no one here uses them.
     
  18. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    But the fact remains that you paid to go into an instance that usually takes a couple months to learn and conquer and cleared it in one day. It's no different than having a lvl 60 run your lvl 15 through The Deadmines. Yes you contribute to the raid by dps'ing but even if you make every conceivable mistake imaginable (not counting pulling the whole zone), it wouldn't have affected the run.

    What I see really often nowadays is that some low lvl twink spamming offers gold/rare items to a lvl 60 for a run through so-and-so instance. Example: A lvl 35 spamming in general chat/lookingforgroup for a lvl 60 epic'd char to run through SM and paying 100g or offering T1 bracers or epic items in exchange.

    I'm not arguing whether it's right or wrong here. It doesn't really matter if it's right or wrong anyways since you can basically do anything you want (besides hacking) provided that you pay your monthly fee. What suprised me is that Jake is stooping to the point where he would pay for someone to twink him. And yes when you buy stuff from the AH, you are in fact twinking and usually the WoW community doesn't look at twinks too highly and the fact that Jake is twinking his main char makes it that much worse.

    Really though, I think it's probably better off if Jake was to join a raid guild. I had the same type of arguments with my RL friends. They refused to join the raid guild that recruited me. I explained to them that we could form our own little group even though we have a different guild tag and we could still keep alts under the original guild. But no, they were too proud of the guild they created. Only problem was they never have more than 10 lvl 60s and they wouldn't recruit because they wanted quality players and they wanted the guild to be friends only. So what happen? They all quit, moved to a PvP server, and low and behold, they all joined different raid guilds because there was no other way to advance and see new content. I see MSC as being in the same situation and Jake is just like my stubborn friends that ended up giving in to the raiding scenario.

    Anyways, I think it's best to just join a raid guild and make alts to keep MSC alive. It's not important what I think though since I'm not paying J's subscription.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2006
  19. Autolycus

    Autolycus Forum Moderator

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    raiding sucks.
     
  20. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    It does get repetitive, I'll give you that.
     

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