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Mages build - Fire vs Frost

Discussion in 'Character Building' started by Scorpion, Jan 23, 2007.

  1. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    I've been fire build up till level 67 and although I like the high damage it isn't as good as frost build. Ice lance only does 200-220 dmg but it's instant cast and only cost 124 mana with a pure frost build. On top of that Lance crits for 1670+ and I've gotten crits for 1750+ and other mages in my guild have reported that it doesn't always break nova on first hit. The mage class lead reported hitting a frozen target 5 times before frost nova wore off. Only problem I see is that Ice Lance doesn't have a slow effect so I'll probably have to cast Rank 1 frostbolts for the slow/freeze effect and then nuke with IL if Frostbite procs.

    The highest instance I've been in so far is Settath (sp?) and from what I've seen, mana is of great concern. As a fire mage (with approx. 28% crit), I had to sit and drink constantly (almost after every pull) even with 3/3 EM. I think frost would be the way to go even though dmg might be a bit lower than fire.

    Another thing to note is that there are some very great aoe spots in Nagrand and I've found some decent spots in Terrokar Forest as well so I went Blizzard spec for the AoE grind. Incidentally, the Nessingway quests in Nagrand requires that you kill 30 of each animals and just like the STV quests, they're chain that leads to killing elite boss of each type.

    What I don't like so far is the lack of recipes for tailoring/enchanting. We as a guild decided to pool our mats so that one person (the mage lead) would get his skill maxed so that we could get free enchants but it seems that the majority of the recipes are bop drops from dungeons or required revered+ rep from the factions in Outland.

    Right now I'm trying to get to 70 as soon as I could so that we can start doing Heroic modes for T4 stuff. I've seen lvl 70s by late Friday (3 days after release) and there was a thread on our forum saying how someone from the EU server getting to 70 with 28 hours of release. So far in my guild, there are about 5 lvl 70s and a few with elite flying mounts and I'm trying to get there so I could get my elite flyer (cost 200g for 225 riding and another 5000g for 300 riding skill plus another 300g for an elite flying mount).
     
  2. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    I love the lasting power of frost also. For my money, the mana efficiency, control, and survivability aspects of frost are worth the supposed damage hit which I have yet to see in my own damage meters. I will have icelance soon, but I probably won't use it because I only use frost nova setups for control, not for crit:

    http://www.mscclan.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11314

    As for blizzard farming... I tried it on the PTR and didn't like it. I stick with cone / nova / flamestrike setups which is used by many as an alternative aoe method. I think it's a matter of personal preference.

    I have had the same problem with lack of tailor / enchanter recipes.

    I got different numbers from the flying mount vendor the other day. To get an epic flying mount you need:

    800g for 225 riding (normal flying, and prereq for 300 riding)
    5000g for 300 riding (epic flying)
    200g for epic flying mount

    Total = 6000g

    I am still 500g short, but I should have it by the time I hit 70.
     
  3. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    Ice Lance is sweet. It has same range as frostbolt (36 yards with talents otherwise 30 yards), acts just like fire blast (without the cooldown), and only cost 124 mana (with talents). It doesn't have the slow effect of frost (so frostbite can't proc) therefore balancing it out but you can kite an elite (provided that it's not immune to slow effects) until it dies without ever getting hit. It's also a great way to gather mutliple mobs for blizzard (or any) aoe.

    I'll hit 68 tonight and probably run Mana Tombs. Most of the items I get from quests are slowly replacing my epics. I only keep 5/8 T2 on for the extra Blizzard radius. Everything else have pretty much been replaced by the various blues from instances and quests.
     
  4. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Deep fire has plenty of ways to conserve mana. I have 3/3 Elemental Precision, 3/3 Master of Elements, 3/3 Pyromaniac, and right now 2/5 Arcane Concentration, on my way to 5/5. My crit rate is comparable to yours. I've had very little problem with down time, and I can dish out the pain.

    "Closer.. come closer... and BURN!!!!!"
     
  5. Wulf

    Wulf MSC Knight and Donator

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    This is the build I am looking at on my mage for level 70:

    http://tinyurl.com/2j99kl

    The point in Arcane Fortitude could move to Incinerate pretty easily, but would give me a little bit more protection should I pull aggro on some trash and need to wait for my Invisibility to finish kicking in.
     
  6. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    Coilfang Reservoir and Hellfire Pennisula instances aren't that mana intensive. I was doing quite fine in those instances until I went to Mana Tombs and Sekketh. I have almost the same build with max Precision, Mastery, and Pyromaniac and still found myself using 3/4 of my mana every pull ( approx. used up about 5k mana every pull from a total pool of 7800).


    What is your primary attack spell? Without Imp. Fireball your dps isn't maximized to it's fullest. Scorch is good but only gets 35% bonus from +dmg items so it's not really a primary attack and also isn't efficient since ignites from other players don't stack with yours any more. Each player gets their own ignite debuff now so even if you crit 75% with scorch, it's not as good as fireball.

    This is my build that I'm going for

    http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info...055522201230333125312510030000000000000000000
     
  7. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    I'm forced to agree with Scorp on Imp. Fireball. Unless you're going for a strict PvP build you almost have to have it. Even with the 2.0.6 nerf it's still an important part of maxing your DPS.

    I'd rather see you give up Impact rather than Imp Fireball. Impact is a nice to have, especially for PvP (Molten Armor + Impact = pissed off warriors and rogues :evil: ), but it's not a necessity.

    Also, Fortitude is not going to help you if you pull aggro and you're waiting for Invis to kick in. According to what I've read on the forums, if you receive ANY hostile action it will break Invisibility, even if the attack misses, is resisted, is absorbed, whatever. Invis is meant to be proactive, if you wait until you've pulled aggro it's too late. Ice Block is the reactive "Oh shit" button.
     
  8. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    :heh:
     
  9. Wulf

    Wulf MSC Knight and Donator

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    I scrapped Imp Fireball when I heard about the 2.0.6 changes, instead branching out to the 3/3 Elemental Precision and 2/2 Flame throwing. Which should actually bring my DPS up a bit, since I can start from further back (more travel time = more fiery lovin') and with reduced mana costs and reduced resists from EP, that could mean the difference between a close fight and a loss. In my opinion of course. Also, the 3/3 Imp Scorch is there to get that De-buff on Asap so I can go back to doing more meaningful things.
     
  10. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    The change wasn't too drastic (about 150 damage reduction). Scorch is good for the debuff but then after that if you don't use fireball, there's not much else you can cast. This limits you to Scorch/Fireblast sequence which don't amount to much since both spells have huge penalties even with all the +damage gear ( I think both only get 35% of whatever +dmg items you have). Having a 3.5 second cast and a 3 second cast is huge since regular mobs in instances takes about 10 fireballs before they even die. The way I see it is that you either give up Impact entirely or move the point from Arcane Fortitude to Impact so that you get at least a small chance to stun. Without Improved Fireball, you can't maximize your dps.

    You have to also remember that Empowered Fireball only affects Fireball so you're also giving up that extra dps when you have extra casting time.
     
  11. Wulf

    Wulf MSC Knight and Donator

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    From the feedback the level 70 mages in my guild are giving me, they hate the change to Improved Frost/Fire bolt/ball. I will be adjusting my spec once I hit the higher levels (of course). When I hit 45ish I will respec to imp Fireball and see how much it effects my Damage per fireball. Really the only way to play it at this point. I had to adjust my routine a little to account for the longer Fireball cast time, but while soloing, I usually open with a Pyroblast, then Fireball, Scorch, Scorch again or Frost nova if they are too close and then wand them for the remaining 500-300 HP they have left before they break nova. At which point I'm at about 2400-2600 out of 3200 mana and can do it again without fear of running dry.
     
  12. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    What they hate is the fact that Fireball and Frostbolt lost some damage from the patch. I remember my fireball doing a minimum of 1550 dmg when the expansion came out and a week later I started seeing 1400s. Do I hate this? Hell yeah. With the gear I have now, I should be doing 1600 min. with my new gear but instead my fireball only does 1500-1750.

    Improved Fireball/Frostbolt doesn't do anything except reduce your casting time. Damage calculations are done according to base casting time; it doesn't consider whether or not you put talent points to reduce your casting time.
     
  13. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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  14. Wulf

    Wulf MSC Knight and Donator

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    Thank you Jake. I was wondering why he didn't seem to notice that :P
     
  15. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Of course they do, their damage output has been reduced. I don't like it much either. But comparing it to the way it used to be is not a valid reason for accepting/rejecting the spell, you need to compare it to other exisiting choices.

    Improved Fireball is still the best DPS spell in a fire mage's arsenal, nerf or no nerf.
     
  16. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    Guess I was too busy getting keyed for all the dungeons and didn't read the patch too closely. But I did do some number-crunching and the results is still the same. Scorch is used as the primary spell for clearing trash since they die easily. However when you fight a boss time is critical and you want to put out as much damage in as little time as possible and with the penalty that scorch has, fireball is the better option. Boss fights, you will cast approximately 25-40 fireballs (depending on raid/non-raid boss) and nerf affects it but not enough for the 10% with 5/5 Imp Fireball. The nerf would overcome the reduced casting time in the long run though so if you don't have to worry about the mana or time-limit for a boss, then the .5 extra casting time would be a better option. I have yet to see a boss-fight where this applies unless Blizzard starts putting it in.

    Also, if you solo/farm, the .5 seconds between casting affects you greatly since having an extra 10% damage isn't worth having the mob beat on you. Usually it only takes mobs 3 seconds for mobs to reach you and start beating on you from max range. That extra .5 second gives you some time for an instant cast (i.e. Dragon's breath) so you can have some moving space. With my current gear and spec, I can pretty much solo the first 4 mobs in Steamvault and those things hit for 1.1k minimum.
     

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