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Mage invisibility revision, not overpowered

Discussion in 'Character Building' started by Jakeman, May 30, 2007.

  1. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    I posted this on the wow suggestion forum just now. I am reposting here:

    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=106676517&sid=1

     
  2. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    TLDR :p
     
  3. Wulf

    Wulf MSC Knight and Donator

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    I agree it should have a shorter cool-down timer, but the aggro reduction thing is already there. Its not an instant thing, like fade, but you drop a huge chunk of hate every second of the buff as it counts down to Invisibility.
     
  4. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    It may not be as much as you think though. Common misconception is that it's a 20% reduction per second, but it's actually 10% per second until the fade completes, at which time you drop all remaining threat.
     
  5. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    And it can only be used when you don't have agro. And even then it still doesn't work if you catch a random hostile effect that is independent of your agro. Invisibility is highly fragile and situational to the point where sometimes you just have to pray it works. My suggestions will fix that without the overpower.

    Blizzard obviously gimped it for fear of the overpower. They removed it from the game for 2 years before adding it back in its current gimped form.

    I am disappointed that I got 0 replies on the blizzard forum. I thought my suggestions were very smart.
     
  6. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Or a friendly effect (heal, buff, etc.).

    They were. Smart posts get no play there. That place is for morons.
     
  7. Wulf

    Wulf MSC Knight and Donator

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    Yeah, Lurk is entirely correct.
     
  8. Twerg

    Twerg MSC Footman

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    OMG

    I haven't had a mage since beta and then only to level 40, so I may not know what I'm talking about. That being said, what you want is for Invisibily to have the cool down time of Prists Fade, but still wipe all agro which Fade doesn't (obviously, since priests still out agro other classes). Or you want Invis to be instant like Rogue's Vanish though it still has the 5 minute cooldown and is interrupted by damage a la aoe or dots. Or you want it to be like Warlock's SoulShatter which reduces agro instantly by 50% except Invis should still be 100%. Or you want Hunter's Feign Death, but still be able to walk around like Invis lets you.

    Point is, if you want the other ability, play that class. All the other abilities have drawbacks or shortcomings, deal with it. Invisibility is fine the way they implemented it.

    Lastly, LTP Mage. Manage your agro, it's part of being good at your class. Any idiot could do mass damage and then clear agro with the click of a button. A good mage can use it before they become agro leader so that they can bring more damage afterward. Plus, you get unlimited invisibility potions with have the cool down. Once again, Blizzard has improved the mage class' ability to farm or solo.

    /slap and stop your crying
     
  9. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    You just gave 4 misinterpretations of my suggestions, advised me to respect class diversity, and told me to l2p. Unfortunately your interpretations are way off and I already addressed class diversity. Read my post. Your personal attacks aren't worthy of comment.

    On a smaller point, you are wrong about invisibility potions. Invisibility potions can only be used out of combat and they do not affect your threat / agro in any way, so the utility is very different from mage invisibility.

    I question your point about solo farming. I suppose you could argue that invisibility helps solo farming in a select few circumstances, but it's more of a raid / group ability to dump threat while a tank holds the mob. If you are somehow arguing that the skill is overpowered for use in solo farming then you are kind of missing the point.

    Unfortunately the current implementation of invisibility is unreliable even in its primary application of the raid / group environment. So you have a class skill that is both situational and unreliable. My main suggestions are designed to help those two problems by making it useful in more situations as well as more reliable to use. I have been careful to place limits on my suggested changes in order to address the concerns which apparently fuel your misinterpretations.
     
  10. OsIriS

    OsIriS Peasant

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    And Scene...
     
  11. Twerg

    Twerg MSC Footman

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    How? Your saying it, does not make it so.

    To sum, you want Priest Fade,
    , but with
    Also
    I said
    Looks the same here.

    Also you say
    I said
    and I pointed out that Vanish
    I'll add that in PVP, if Hunter pet is still out, he's not dead, just keep hitting the Hunter, or for that matter, do it anyway.

    Again, I don't feel I'm misinterpreting what you said, but if so, why don't you elaborate and not use an ad ignorantiam argument.

    Just because the skill has more applications, it does not take away from the fact that for 20 seconds you are invisible, thus works like an invisibility potion. I've know hunters who use Feign Death to travel difficult areas, albeit slowly, which I'm sure is not the intended use, but a use all the same. This skill has more than one utility.

    If you consider farming as the means to earn money, then the Invisibiilty skill allows you to get to difficult places that other classes can't. This is true of the Rogue Stealth ability as well. I don't know an application in the expansion area yet, but an old example would be mining and smelting dark iron ore pre patch. Something that was difficult to do solo, but could be done by Rogues, maybe Hunters, but not Palys or Warriors without Invisibilty Potions.

    If you time it, it can be very useful in a boss, particularly when the tank is having a hard time maintaining high agro. For example, if you do half way through the fight, you will generate half as much agro by the end as you would if you didn't use it.

    Lastly, I'm calling you out on this. Except criticism for what it is, a challenge to your argument, not a personal attack. That's coming in the next post.
     
  12. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Ok, I will address each specific interpretation:

    The cooldown suggestion was labelled "wishful thinking." In that suggestion I admitted that the whole skill might have to be reworked to prevent the overpower. Therefore you can't call me out for advocating an agro wipe on a short cooldown since I said the skill (which includes the agro wipe) would need to be reworked for balance with the cooldown.

    I never suggested that the 5 second fade time be removed. The fade time is important to prevent, "pew pew POOF pew pew!".

    I don't even know what soulshatter does. I would have to look it up to compare them. I certainly did not mention soulshatter in my post.

    I just looked it up. Soulshatter looks like it would allow for a partial, "pew pew POOF pew pew!" since it's instant. I might argue that soulshatter is overpowered, saying nothing of implementing an improved version of that in place of mage invisibility.

    Feign death is an instant cast agro wipe on a 30 second cooldown. That is truly a "pew pew POOF pew pew!" skill. In the hands of a mage that would be hugely overpowered. I certainly did not advocate that.

    Farming usually does not include sneaking into hard-to-reach places. Some specialized farming is like that, but Blizzard usually stops that kind of farming after it is discovered... like when rogues used to stealth into heroic dungeons and ninja chests without fighting any mobs, or when rogues used to solo the chess event in karazhan.

    Also keep in mind that these specialized stealth farming examples rarely apply to mages with invisibility. Invisibility makes you blind for the duration (you can't see any mobs) making it very difficult to precision navigate to farm locations. Plus it only lasts for 20 seconds, so you can't just skip a whole instance like rogues can with stealth.

    Many bosses have random hostile effects which can break invisibility. No amount of timing can avoid random hostile effects. That is the "unreliable" argument I have been making.
     
  13. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    I should have said that these random hostile effects break the fade which prevents full invisibility and the agro wipe. This is an important distinction.
     
  14. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    How DARE you suggest locks are overpowered? Blizz bans people for thinking that. :p
     
  15. Twerg

    Twerg MSC Footman

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    I have a 70 lock and yes they are over powered. :P Jealous?
     
  16. Fujin

    Fujin MSC Knight

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    Warlocks! Where?
     

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