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low activity, raiding bug, course of guild

Discussion in 'MSC Clan' started by Jakeman, Jul 9, 2006.

  1. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Activity is down lately. People don't need "small content" anymore, and without another reason to play the game they are not active. This is expected and is not necessarily a bad thing. Every past clan game has seen eventual lulls in activity.

    Many of our core members have been bit by the raiding bug. Sentinel left to raid a while ago, as did Aes, Stephine, CK, Levi, Xodis, and more recently, Firemane. In addition, several current members have expressed a desire to raid including Fujin, Cal, and myself.

    With raiding in mind, several courses for the guild have been proposed:


    1) Merge with a raid guild. We have received merger proposals from raid guilds before. The most recent one was Chimera Evolution. Unfortunately most of our members are casual such that the merger would effectively be a disband.

    2) Recruit and become a raid guild. Unfortunately I do not have the inclination to be a raid guild leader... the responsibility is huge. And again we have the problem of the majority of our members being casual.

    3) Raid with HGA (now BAH). Several of us have recognized that BAH doesn't have the ambition for serious raiding. With most of MC behind us, BAH raiders seem content to farm up through Domo and stop. BWL ain't happening when we keep calling it off due to lack of bodies (from lack of ambition).

    The underlying problem is that our guild is small and casual, and the leader lacks the inclination to lead a raid guild. These are things which cannot be easily changed unless we disband and reform through a merger or recruiting effort, something which would leave behind the majority. Given this reality of the situation, I envision the natural course as one where the raiders among us leave to join other guilds while MSC remains intact in its original form, inactive or not.

    Discuss.
     
  2. MisterHalleck

    MisterHalleck Peasant

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    I got the raiding bug, realized that raiding would become a part-time job for nothing other than better gear and a larger e-peen. I went and soloed off on another server, farmed gold for days, and got myself a tiger mount for my dwarf. At that point I realized that the game was nothing more than an online theme part where you spend time and money to get tickets (gold/quest items) and turn them in to get a toy.

    I haven't played since February. Playing WoW made me miss a lot of life that I should have participated in. My case is not what I expect from any or all of you, and I can understand that it still has appeal despite my issues with it.

    If I was still playing, my pet project would be for a merge with a raid guild - they bring the manpower, but move over to the MSC website. Jake has done an insane job of maintaining the site - the events page worked out great, and it's better than I've seen on any other clan site.

    The guild leader and raid leader don't have to be the same person.
     
  3. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    This is a topic I plan to write on soon.

    Many people are slow to realize the nature of the game and their own personal limits and motivations. This is evident from conflicts that arise causing personal grief. Games should not cause you grief. I blame the players, not the game.

    This site has been my hobby for over 10 years. Many guilds are lucky to last 1 year. I don't want to give away my investment like that. This site will persist even if the guild is no more.

    No one else in the guild wants to lead either.
     
  4. Calendryll

    Calendryll MSC Commander and Donator

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    I'll have to think on this one. I am a little uncertain as to how I would like to proceed. I am largely content with how MSC operates and only feel the "raiding bug" at times. To be forced into a permanent schedule will not sit well with me in the long run I fear. There are raiding guilds that have the more casual attitude but they appear to do about as well as BAH/HGA. As I said before, I'm pretty uncertain at this point.
     
  5. MisterHalleck

    MisterHalleck Peasant

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    let someone from a merge-in lead raids?
     
  6. Autolycus

    Autolycus Forum Moderator

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    merging is bad, try to join a joint casualish raid group. raiding is the antithesis of casual, and pretty much totally sucks.
     
  7. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Well I'm new to it, so I haven't reached that level of frustration yet. I've heard others say that though, after a few months of raiding many people get tired of doing nothing else. However, is that much different than running UBRS/Strath/Scholo every day, or grinding PvP forever and getting sick of it?

    Plus I disagree with raiding being the antithesis of casual. I think that it's casual vs. hardcore, or raider vs. non-raider. It's possible to be a hardcore non-raider, or a casual raider (if you can find the right group). True, being a hardcore raider is the fastest way to new content and new loot, but that's nothing new.

    BAH/HGA could be considered a "casualish raid group," but I was frustrated with the slow pace. Nothing against the leaders of HGA, I think they're all awesome, but you all know how I felt about taking green geared players into MC.

    There are a few so-called "casual" raid guilds on Hyjal, I looked into them before joining Bellum Gero. Even Bellum doesn't take themselves too seriously, so far I've had a real good experience with them.
     
  8. dcwilson26

    dcwilson26 MSC Knight

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    No matter what happens, my work makes it so I can't play 99% of the time. Nevertheless, merging with a raid guild might be best. We could still always be known as the MSC division of whatever guild we join (kinda like a special forces unit). Anyway, out of the three options you gave, that one is the one I would pick. But since I don't play much anymore, don't give too much weight to my opinion. Whatever you guys decide is fine with me.
     
  9. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Oh I agree, mergers are gay.

    The raiders here have already seen the problems with this through HGA / BAH. Obviously Lurk wasn't satisfied with it.
     
  10. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    Funny how things work. When I left Hyjal for a new server, my friends was mad at me for leaving their guild to join a raid guild. Their guild was operates pretty much like MSC and never consisted of more than 10 lvl 60s. After I left the guild, they left the server for a PvP server. Now they're all hardcore raiders, raiding 6 times a week. Eventually everyone playing the game will have to raid or quit since there will never be much content for a 10-man group and even if there is, it would be conquered so easily that people will get sick and tired of running it over and over.

    Anyways, I think merging is probably the best way for you guys to get more end-game content. You can try to find a guild that only raids 3-4 days a week and merge with them. Make sure the policy allows for people to miss partial raids though since you never know what can happen. I'm pretty happy with the guild that I joined. We only raid 3 days a week and most of the time I don't even spend 12 raiding hours every week.
     
  11. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    I don't think HGA / BAH is the best example of "casualish raiders" though, for this reason:

    And this is the difference between wanting new content, or simply better loot. Having to show up and actually put forth an effort turns a lot of people off. These are the same people complaining about the player caps having been reduced on the end game dungeons, and that they can't complete their Tier 0.5 sets because the Baron 45 is too hard. They want to show up, push a few buttons, and get purples. (Because, they say, Blizzard promised casuals ZOMG EPIX!)

    Like Scorp says, there are guilds who raid 3-4 days a week, 3-4 hours a raid, without mandatory attendance, but make better progress than HGA because they actually expect you to show up ready for the content. They exist on Hyjal, and I'm not even talking about Bellum. BAH could be that too, if they start being more selective on who they take on raids (and stay out of AQ for a while). Simply being level 60 doesn't make you ready for MC. I suspect Foxy feels the same way.

    There are good players in BAH, if I was going to start a new raid guild on Hyjal, it's one of the first places I'd look.

    Aye, this is the big issue. Blizzard says this will change with the expansion, but we'll see. Even they admit to poor planning with the order in which they released new dungeons. I think they still want to satisfy the non-raiders, contrary to popular belief.
     
  12. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Of those who are still with us, I see one person who is content with the guild as it is (Cal) and one person who wants to merge (Agar), but Agar doesn't have time to raid. As for me, I have already outlined the limits of this guild and stated that I prefer things to remain as they are.

    Speaking of limits, I encourage people here to reflect upon their own. I am hesitant to become a hardcore raider because of the long term commitment. Unfortunately I am not one to leave anything prematurely, be it a group, raid, or guild, and I recognize that limitation in myself. Other possible concerns include questions of available play time and motivations for raiding, be it for content or purples.

    You almost sound like Digo. :eek:

    Though it does not necessarily follow, I submit that there is a correlation between "casual" and "wanting only better loot." The word "casual" implies a lack of time... a lack of time to put forth the effort which leaves only the desire for purples, something which is evidenced by the large number of leavers during raids, the high turnouts for farm bosses, and the low turnouts for learned bosses. I maintain that HGA / BAH is a good example of Auto's dreaded casualish raid group.
     
  13. dcwilson26

    dcwilson26 MSC Knight

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    I am fine with the way the guild is right now. But if people want to raid, I would prefer the merge over recruiting and raiding hardcore with BAH. I'm with Cal in that this guild is right for the way I play.
     
  14. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Touche. :p Does that make the point any less valid?

    I think we're saying the same thing differently. Raid burnout due to constant wiping happens at all levels. Even the uber guilds (Casual-with-a-capital-C, for example) sometimes have issues with players "disappearing" while encounters are being learned. However, there's a reason for the week-long reset timers. It IS possible to be "casualish" and still show up ready to progress through raid content. There are examples of it on our own server, and I maintain that BAH could be that as well by weeding out some of the less ambitious players and stop trying to do too many things at once.
     
  15. JollyRedGiant

    JollyRedGiant MSC Commander

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    I agree with Agar and Cal. I do not know how much time my schedule will allow me to be able to play next semester and for the rest of college. I like the way that we do things, and people how have time and want to can raid with BAH. As others have said, if we were to decided to become a raid guild of some sort, I would prefer a merger to recruiting.
     
  16. Fujin

    Fujin MSC Knight

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    I can't really pick

    By far this is the best guild I’ve been in. J is really relaxed and doesn’t demand people to do anything. J also keeps up on the site which is great. All the people in here are great! Fire your still part of MSC or that’s how I see it. For me I can’t really pick because I’m not sure what’s going to happen with me in the next couple of months! If I get a job my online time might change, if I go live with my wife my online time might be cut down! I’m fine with the guild right now but I would like to raid with some motivated people! Not people who like to give up on 2 tires! If a raid guild would like to have some extra bodies I’m down but if not I’m fine raiding with BAH.
     
  17. Twerg

    Twerg MSC Footman

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    On behalf of Choco and myself

    hmmm... so much to say on the subject.

    first, let me say that as very casual players (more so for me lately), Choco and I don't really contribute enough for our opinions to hold sway over the future of the guild. That being said, if you're still interested in our thoughts, read on.

    I think Jaden has set a standard for leadership that would be difficult to find elsewhere and I fear that any merger would cost us his guidance (for lack of a better way to describe it). J, you kick @$$!

    as for Choco, she sometimes logs in just to see what's up with you guys. She loves this guild as is, doesn't care about endgame stuff, but plays just to pass the time with the guild. About as casual as it gets.

    I haven't played much as I'm trying level my RL right now instead (as are others in our guild). I know it seems as though MSC has become a training guild for other raiding guilds (level you to 60, bring up your skills, and off to a raid guild), but I think of it as more a social guild among elite players. It seems that Jaden and Cal have extensive networks outside the guild for when they want to get things done. Aside from that, I've learned from past experiences that guild mergers usually mean the death of the smaller guild. I've been in two other guilds that were casual and merged to larger guilds for end game content and both situations ended terribly. For example, Choco's brother was a leader in the Black Cats which first tried to recruit to run MC and found that all they did was dilute the talent and character of the guild. They then merged with Kriegslkfjllsjd something or another and found that the drama was overwhelming. Many of the original Black Cats, about 10 out of 15 players, ended up leaving the server, playing horde, or quiting the game all together. Basically, we lost the comaraderie of the original guild for nothing. Kleaninglady (Choco's brother) won't even join a guild now because it was such a bad experience. So, we're both against any merger.

    If the guild has to change at all, then maybe it would be the size so that there are enough online to do the raids and such. I think the real reason the guild is the size that it is though is because it is so intimate and that is lost with larger guilds. Maybe MSC would be big enough if all the old members came back, but maybe not (miss you guys).

    As for Blizzard's end game designs, I would say that WOW is like any other mmorpg and not designed for the soloing types. It's not that I don't like a challenge, but I don't like depending on others or committing to whole nights and days to accomplish things. If Blizzard wanted to keep more people interested at end game, then they could implement one or two man instances, pvp ladders, or rewards. Why is it that in mmorpg's bigger always means better, more skilled, or fun. If a 5 man or 10 man instance is not tough enough, they make a 20 or 40 man instance. The only difficulty I see there is logistics. Can we get together that many people at the same time for the amount of time necessary all with the needed skill level? I think that we have or had some of the strongest players in game (45 minute Baron ain't nothing for MSC). Just because we don't have 40 of the best in game doesn't mean that MSC isn't one of the more skilled guilds. Pound for pound, I wouldn't trade any of our guild for 40 of another. However, I may never epic out because I don't have the desire PUG over and over until I get a group as skilled as one from MSC or want to work points with a guild from raiding the same instance over and over again. Maybe I'll just be like Choco... without e-peen envy. :)
     
  18. Twerg

    Twerg MSC Footman

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    another thought occured to me...

    Why doesn't Blizzard allow people to join more than one guild? We could keep Fire and the others in our chat without them losing the ability to raid with others. In a way that could be a badge of honor if you belong to many guilds.

    Just a thought... probably many reasons for the way it is.
     
  19. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Good words Twerg. My observations after a few weeks in Bellum:

    Raid guilds are not as close knit, but that's not a surprise. That's not to say they aren't nice people, because they are. Guild chat is kinda boring, though. It could be that I don't know a lot of them yet, but one of the biggest things I miss about MSC is the camaraderie we had in our chats.

    Raiding is fun, but don't let raiders tell you that 40 man instances are harder. They are in terms of the number of people needed, of course, but it's still just a collection of encounters that need to be learned. If anything, there's actually LESS for me to do in raids, as I'm forced into more of a niche than I am in the 5- and 10-man stuff. (I say this with virtually no AQ40 or Naxx experience, however; I've read that the encounters there break the molds of traditional class roles to a certain extent.) The 45 minute Baron run remains the hardest and most exhilarating thing I've done in this game.

    Finally, having seen players from all ends of the spectrum I can say this: MSC is a damn fine collection of players and people, who should take a back seat to no one. I do truly miss playing and chatting with all of you. If you'll still have me in your groups, I expect I'll be looking you up on off nights for some old fashioned MSC butt kicking. (Especially when the expansion hits.)
     
  20. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    As an aside, an example of something I don't like about some raiders' mentality: I got into a "discussion" with Ck the other night. After giving me crap for joining "Bellum Retardo" as he called it, he was stroking his new guild Severity's e-peen for "1-shotting" Ragnaros (i.e. killing him on their first try as a guild). Never mind that at least 25 of the raid members had previous Rag experience, and I'd wager that all 40 had previous MC experience. I said that it was only slightly more impressive than me taking 9 other UBRS geared people who've never partied before and 1-shotting Drakk. You know, it is almost 2-year old content and all. But apparently I'm a noob for thinking such a thing. He then went on to list all the guilds (many of whom he used to be in)that Severity is now "better than," but whom he apparently wasn't aware have killed Rag several times already (Rebirth for example). My response: Whatever, dude. Comparing guild e-peens is lame and stupid.

    If he stays in Severity for any length of time, that will be his most impressive achievement.
     

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