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lots of talent changes in wotlk beta

Discussion in 'Character Building' started by Jakeman, Jul 29, 2008.

  1. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    They just made a crap ton of changes to mage talents. I am not even familiar with the talent trees of other classes to know if they made lots of changes to them, but I suspect they did.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?
     
  2. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    My god why are they trying to fix Flamestrike? Fire mages don't WANT to aoe...
     
  3. OsIriS

    OsIriS Peasant

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    It looks like they're reversing the change of tying spirit to spell damage and stamina for warlocks. With the new itemization, I don't know if that was a good idea for the warlocks to complain about the spirit change as much as they did.
     
  4. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    For those who've never heard of Lhivera, he is a fairly well known mage theorycrafter who frequents the Elitist Jerks forums. He has his own site and is the author of a useful mage calculator. He used to have a big presence on the WoW mage forums until he got permabanned for posting some theorycraft about the WotLK talents while they were still under NDA.

    Anyway, as a semi-serious mage raider I find that his opinions frequently mirror my own so I tend to respect what he says.

    Here is his review of the WotLK mage talents: http://www.manoutoftime.org/staticpages/index.php/wotlk_mage

    I don't agree with all of it, but I do with most of it, and I'm sorry to say that mages, and especially ones of my favorite spell school, are getting boned yet again. Improved synergy and better AoE do not make up for the lack of competitive single target DPS when compared to the other classes. Sub-par DPS, especially relative to locks and hunters, has been a problem for mages throughout all of end-game Burning Crusade content, and at first blush it looks like Fire mages at least don't get much help. If I don't just give up and level my hunter, Firemane may become an Arcane mage for the first time in her career. Sorry, I'm not going to be the raid's Improved Scorch bitch, and I suspect most other mages won't want to, either.
     
  5. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Ok, so what if Blizzard gives mages superior DPS? Where would that leave the other DPS classes?

    ps - I claim this thread for mages :king:
     
  6. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    With the raid synergies we will be able to provide, equal DPS would be satsifactory. Giving us synergy but leaving our DPS inferior only solves half the problem, nor is the added synergy justification for allowing our damage scaling to continue to lag behind other classes.

    Without those synergies, superior DPS would be demanded. Otherwise there is no reason to fill a raid spot with mages except as filler. This is the present situation.

    By the way, you claimed the thread for mages in your OP:

     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2008
  7. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    I have never had problems with DPS, but my gear is lagging behind the curve right now so I'm not at the top lately. Perhaps your complaint is specifically about DPS while on the move?
     
  8. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    It's a host of things. Lack of mobility is certainly a factor. But just from a raw numbers standpoint BM hunters and Affliction Warlocks outdamage us even on stand and spam fights. Rogues too, but their superior DPS is justified (they bring nothing else to the table). Even elemental shaman are competitive with mages, and they arguably provide more raid utility than any other class.

    Blizzard catered to the non-pure classes and normalized damage scaling a long time ago, and mages were the biggest victims. Right now we have lack luster DPS and no raid utility except the Int buff, which is hardly critical to success. (Food and water can be vendor purchased and thus do not count.)

    And not to sound elitist but even you would have to concede your recent raid experience is limited. In exactly which BC raid instances have you topped meters? Or does "never having a problem" mean you are okay simply being top 10?
     
  9. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    I used to destroy in Kara because there is nothing for a mage to do except DPS. In most other raid dungeons I am performing other duties in addition to DPS (sheeping, cube clicking, etc) so the meter doesn't represent. I have also seen lots of other mages top the meters in various dungeons. Their DPS seems up to par.
     
  10. OsIriS

    OsIriS Peasant

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    I'm pretty sure almost all DPS is filler in raids...Tank being first priority, healing being second and then CC (if needed) is third and then just well geared DPS of really any class.

    And to tell you the truth, the only reason why warlocks beat out mages in DPS is because of demonic sacrifice, which is a dumb, but overpowered talent that is getting nerfed to hell in the expansion.

    I've been thinking of pretty much abandoning my warlock and trying to either get my Hunter or my Paladin on Hyjal up to 70 (I'm tired of looking for tanks for groups), but since none of you guys really play anymore, I haven't had much motivation to level him.
     
  11. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    You know they expect a lot of Death Knights so other classes will need to supplement the raid. Look at frost talents: Improved Water Elemental....Mage/Priest in one.
     
  12. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    on mmo-champion.com, posted July 30

     
  13. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Meh. The healing effect is dumb. I'm all for synergy but it should be well thought out, not synergy just so they can say "Hay guyz look we gave u raid utilitiez. Now u shuld get raid spotz, gg gratz!!1!11"

    It's not like raids that are light on healers are going to grab a bunch of frost mages for healing. And the WE is still going to be used to augment a frost mage's DPS, NOT to heal the raid.
     
  14. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    huh?
     
  15. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Kara is srs bizns, emirite? And all else being equal, locks and hunters will beat you there too, by the way.

    Look, mages are a DAMAGE class. That's what we do. We traded a lot of shit to do damage (armor, health, utility, etc.) so we should be the best at it.

    It's not just me. Visit the websites of the top guilds in the world. Look at their WWS reports. See how many mages they take versus Warlocks or Hunters. Do the theorycrafting yourself if you want to.

    Blizzard admitted at WWI that warlocks are better. The exact quote, which I can probably find somewhere, admitted that even they've noticed that Warlocks tend to get raid spots over mages. They just kill faster than we do. Wait, or was Blizzard QQing too?
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2008
  16. OsIriS

    OsIriS Peasant

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    Meaning, if you are going to start a raid, say SSC, do you secure your rogues, warlocks, mages and hunters first? No. Those spots are filled in after you secure your tanks and healers...and after CC classes are considered, any DPS character properly geared and able to understand their class's mechanics can fill that DPS slot. You don't roll into a raid with 25 DPS characters.

    And like I was saying earlier about Warlocks, the only reason why warlocks (and it's probably only 0/21/40 warlocks that will out DPS a similar mage in T5 and above content) is because of one particularly stupid and overpowered talent -- Demonic Sacrifice, which if you look at the WoLK talents has been totally changed. So there will no longer be Destro locks saccing their succubus, throwing up CoS (now CoE) and spamming shadow bolts for godly amounts of damage.
     
  17. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Well bliz is apparently reworking all of our talents so maybe they agree with you.

    I like how mages are gonna have big resists now (if you go tier 2 arcane). The physically weakest class gets the most magic armor, so to speak.
     
  18. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Well yeah it's about time for the Sac nerf, but anyway...it's not the only reason Warlocks are better. To name a few others, they are also more mobile (dots keep ticking while on the move), have unlimited mana as long as they have a healer, and to date have never had to worry about Shadow resistant or immune bosses. The CoS/CoE change was long overdue, and it has helped.

    By "filler" I mean, "Hey we need a warm body here, who can we take?" And you're wrong, I plan for DPS as much as I do for Tanks and Healers. DPS is the only way the boss dies. You're making it sound like you could take ANY tank or ANY healer or ANY DPS and succeed. On some encounters, maybe you could get away with that, but most of the time that's just not how it works.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2008
  19. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    from mage forum:

    ...to which Blizzard replied that they are considering changing that skill.

    :laugh:
     
  20. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    mage updates on mmo-champion

     

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