I am not going in the direction of armory profiles. If that takes away from my position then so be it. I prefer general arguments because they aren't subject to confusion over minutia. Even my general argument about threat was confused by Wulf. It becomes increasingly difficult to maintain a good discussion when we start arguing over smaller and smaller facets of the issue. I am willing to go that route in troll threads of mine, but that is not my goal in this case. Fire mages don't argue armory profiles to support their observations because they feel confident in their ability to do #1 dmg, and so do I. Threads like this in support of fire mages usually have a little bit of math followed by the conclusion that no one can beat fire. Then a frost mage like me comes in and is asked for specifics out of disbelief as if starting with the conclusion that fire must necessarily do more dmg. I prefer a more scientific approach that doesn't begin with a conclusion. You will notice that I have not addressed all counterarguments. If something can be countered then you can expect me to do so. Otherwise I simply accept the validity of the opposing argument and move on. Some of my arguments have been successfully countered so I have been falling back on other arguments like threat, an argument which so far has not been countered from what I can see. If I have accepted your counters and you have accepted mine, then we might be done with the discussion. We can safely assume that dmg = threat when comparing a fire mage and a frost mage in the same group / raid since both of them have 10% threat reduction in talents and both will have the same pally blessings. I have never grouped with a shaman that used his threat totem. And I have accepted those stated reasons. Granted that both of our raw dps arguments have some fudge room, but I am content to accept your arguments with the fudge since mine are also caked with it. But the "strict dps" arguments ignore my point about the threat ceiling which seems better equipped to explain my observation. Can we agree that my threat ceiling argument is valid?