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Calling you out Jaden

Discussion in 'MSC Clan' started by Twerg, Jun 9, 2007.

  1. Twerg

    Twerg MSC Footman

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    Man, youi're so quick to put yourself on a pedestal lately and tell others their short comings, yet you can't take a challenge. Well, I'm calling you out.

    You need to get that stick out of your ass. You've brought so much tension to the guild lately I'm beginning to wonder about you. You have some issue about people who drink (most of the guild) and girls (one regular player with a few others by the way) and some problem with how we play (you quit after one wipe which you point out is everyone else's faults).

    You assume we need you to lead every posted event, but we don't. You're rigid in your runs to the detriment of the people in your guild you are trying to help. I don't want to bring other people into my ranting, so I'm avoiding specifics, but you need to be brought down a peg.

    The last time you've talked while I was in guild chat you've said (and I'm paraphrasing) someone can't tank and I can't heal, that you aren't talking any more cause some people were joking about your drunk people comment, and that people need to jerk off so that they stop talking about girls.

    All the friendly flattery from this guild has gone to your head. Please tell me this guild is more than an e-peen for you to hear how great a player you are or for you to vent how Blizz has done you wrong.

    Jaden, it's time to reeximine [/url]http://www.mscclan.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11392/[/url]

    You've had my understanding for several weeks, now its time to show that you meant it.
     
  2. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    I can take a challenge. Thanks for posting this. If indeed I am as bad as you say then I need to know about it so I can change. I would like everyone else to chime in on this too please.

    Most of my comments about girls are joking. It is difficult to communicate "tone" in guild chat.

    Most of my comments about alcohol are serious. I hold serious judgment against all people who drink for any reason. I try to argue my points on that subject sometimes but people aren't receptive, so I usually just drop the subject like the other night when I said I wasn't talking anymore. I could have carried on but I am not one to throw around hateful remarks.

    I had to go after the first attempt last night because I couldn't stay awake. I wanted to stay to the end of that first attempt though because I said I would be there and we are trying to get you guys keyed for karazhan. My comments about the wipe were strictly constructive (see below). I don't remember blaming anyone. I simply pointed out the specific problems that lead to the wipe.

    I don't assume that people need me to lead everything. If you are referring to my recent post on that subject, I was giving an example based on my experience with some dependant players. I am sure we have all known some bad leachers in this game. Not everyone is like that. Most people in this guild are not like that. You are not like that.

    By "rigid" I assume you are referring to the Old Hillsbrad run last night. Rigidity in chain quest escort runs is often required since it is very easy to lose one person in the chain progression such that we have to do the run again. That is why I was very careful during the quest transitions. I learned my lesson doing numerous jail break runs. Otherwise I don't think of my groups as rigid, just overly organized at times. This has always been the case as far as I can remember. I thought people liked that because it makes my groups very productive.

    I assume you are talking about Old Hillsbrad last night? My mention of specific problems with that run were strictly constructive. You go to far in your paraphrasing... I said there were two problems:


    1) KL died too fast on those mobs.

    I did not say KL couldn't tank, nor did I intend any such insinuation. KL seemed to take it constructively when he replied that he might have taken on too many mobs. From discussion like that we can work out solutions for next time, like having KL take on fewer mobs at once.

    I suspect you also might have taken this to mean that you can't heal. I didn't say that, nor is it true.

    2) Twerg didn't res fast enough.

    That is a fact. You had no mana so you couldn't res. I suggested that you chug a mana pot next time in that situation since there is no time for drinking. Problem identified and solved for next time. Strictly constructive. I see no harm.

    As for the girl comments, as always they carry a joking hostility coming from me.

    This guild is not about my epeen. I don't use this guild just as a means to vent. Web sites and gaming happen to be my main hobbies and I thoroughly enjoy them.

    So many people worship me in game that people begin to think I am full of myself. Public opinion says I am an awsome mage. I try not to tout my status or brag about my character. Sometimes I think that any pride on my part mixes with public opinion to make me look smug. I try to keep the ship off my shoulder, but people keep trying to put it back up there.

    I meant it when I apologized in that thread. Hopefully this response is evidence of that. The main area where I have not improved is in my tolerance for alcohol. Some people get offended about religion and politics, I get offended about alcohol and drugs. If you drink around me or talk positively about alcohol then I will get deeply offended. At that point it is a question of how much anger I can hold back. I am responsible for that anger.
     
  3. Twerg

    Twerg MSC Footman

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    Thanks J for handling this like a champion.

    By the way, I wasn't only referencing the Old Hillsbrad run, but you got the gist of it.

    Anyway, you are a good Mage/Guild Leader/Friend, I was just really worried about all the tension lately in guild.

    Good point about text not passing on proper emotions.

    Hugs all around.
     
  4. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Well the leader affects the guild atmosphere, and my temperament hasn't been the best lately. I have no doubt that I am at least partially responsible for any recent tension in the guild. The best thing I can do is talk about it. Luckily most people here are relaxed and understanding.
     
  5. shack

    shack MSC Knight

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    i suppose now might be the wrong time

    But i feel alot of the same way that twerg does and as far as caring whether ppl drink or not noone should care cause its not any of thier buisness. im sure the whole thing WAS a miss understanding cause u cant really make vocal tone differences to change the meaning. but either way alot of ppl have left this guild due to the #1 problem by far is critisism. i KNOW because im the goddamn mediator . except for with Jaden because of the fact that he is too F@#$%^& smart. and bro thats a compliment because im smarter than EVERYONE xP .we all need to take alittle from each other and make it a GAME again...now i feel like a hipacrit because i have obligations with another guild but if we actually start playing again or recruit( and already know the guilds stand on that) im gona have to leave. MSC will ALWAYS be my home/family and i wouldnt want ANY other leader but i gotta progress othwise might as well cancel the account. so thats where i stand and would like feedback :) .....oh and btw i can pull aggro from tanks while holy spec let alone prot:) <---hey im buzzed/a pally what can i say (smart ass/joking face goes here)
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2007
  6. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    People leave because of criticism? From me? All indications say that people leave because we can no longer serve their needs for progression. There is evidence of this all throughout the game, in other guilds, as well as in this guild. Many people use guilds as a means to get epics, not for friendship or other less tangible achievements. You are an example of this by your own admission.

    I have my own personal objections about the motivations of players like this, but like you said... it's none of my business so I don't normally call people out for it. There are times when I feel that it is my business, like when I invest an appreciable amount of time and effort into a guildie only to have them leave and take that achievement with them, or when my relationship with my ex is destroyed by alcohol. These things affect me and cause me to speak out on those issues. I usually set limits when speaking out in order to respect the rights of others. But surely it is OK to voice opinions now and then, just as you guys are doing here.

    For example, here is a nugget from me about your motivations for leaving. This is strictly constructive and carries none of the personal edge that it appears to have, this is just the reality of the situation as I see it. Your player goals are empty. You play WoW with the primary goal of achieving epics. To accomplish that goal you abandon friendship and fun to join a raid guild. Unfortunately the epic finish line is constantly being moved back by Blizzard through content patches. The result is that you are perpetually grinding away at epics in order to keep up with the content curve while not enjoying actually playing the game. This is a recipe for burnout. We see evidence of this in the discontent and grief of raiders all throughout the game. If these players truly enjoyed playing the game then they wouldn't burnout with the release of an expansion, or coincidentally stop raiding after getting the items they want, or simply get tired of playing altogether. This reality doesn't apply to all raiders, so it might not apply to you, but it is worthy of some thought at least.

    My primary goal in this game is friendship. That's why I enjoy helping others the way I do. Recruiting for achievement has lead to problems with dependants in the past who take away from the fun and friendly atmosphere of the guild. That is why I am now hesitant to cater to the achiever in this game. Unfortunately this conflicts with players like you. There is no problem here, it's just a conflict of interest. It is expected that players guild together based on interest, so it is also expected that players with different interests from this guild might leave to better serve their own interests. That is the root cause of people leaving, not the difference of opinion (criticism, as you say) that follows.
     
  7. shack

    shack MSC Knight

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    wasnt aimed TOTALY at u

    we have all pissed some ppl off at one point or another...and as a friend im not gona lie and say u didnt make some ppl leave as I have. but my point was to get everyone enjoy themselves and as far as helping i havnt got help from you personally in a while..i know i have shity times but i just dont have the RL privlidge of asking for a set time cause i dont know when my times are, or maybe its just getn old not doin random 5mans even anymore...and as far as leaving i nvr wanted too, i asked for us to merge or recruite or somthin so we could atleast finish a dam instance w/o ppl leaving due to noob/puglyness <--(that was good xP) what u should do is devise a recruiting process to weed out the retards...lol. we all dont have friends and farming time to get nice gear...and if we do have them (in my case ) thier guild comes b4. Its just shity to be this good and not atleast look it XD
    (hoping that he is still in msc when he logs) xP
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2007
  8. shack

    shack MSC Knight

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    BTW thanks for not tearing me a new one :)
     
  9. Fujin

    Fujin MSC Knight

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    We need hugs!

    Only true problem I've had with J is when J made some comments in guild chat about the Military and their actions. Being a Marine and reading what your wrote made me want to show up to your house and beat the shit out of you until you said you where sorry a million times. It's very disrespectful when people say shit about the military and never severed, that's a slap in my face and any other military person out there.. But I was a man and I told myself I'll let you think what you want and live your life by that. Other then that J I have no problems.
     
  10. harleyb

    harleyb Peasant

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    I know I don't WoW with you guys, and I haven't been around for the cause of much of this discussion, but I need to say that being completely intolerant of alcohol use to the point of getting upset enough to leave a conversation will have a serious damper on not online your online relationships but your professional ones too.

    Since I'm a little in the dark, maybe you could enlighten me on your feelings towards alcohol.
     
  11. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    You've got it backwards. If I can't be friends with some one because of their alcohol use then that's their loss, not mine. I don't subscribe to popular opinion as a means of establishing a controlling position. As kids we are taught not to give into peer pressure but that lesson is lost on almost everyone.

    Alcohol inhibits brain function. Your judgment is impaired, your response time slowed, your inhibitions lessened, your ability to reason hindered. Without these mental controls you become a danger to yourself and those around you. Consider that most users of alcohol drink in social situations which maximizes the risk. As far as I am concerned there is no difference between "use" and "abuse" since the user lacks the judgment to make that distinction. A person under the influence lacks the mental discipline that defines what it is to be an adult... they are a child in my mind and I treat them as such.

    Yes, I was personally hurt by some one who used alcohol, but my new opinions on the matter are not so shallow in justification. My personal experience with alcohol just heightened my appreciation for the destructive effects of the drug. I was against alcohol before my experience, although not so passionately.

    No you may not ask me for details of my experience. I appreciate your subtle attempts to counsel me lately, but it is not necessary. I am the counselor.
     
  12. Kalgareth

    Kalgareth Peasant

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    I'm in the same boat as harley on this one. I tried WoW back in beta and for a short time after release but left pretty quickly and never played with any of you. I do still frequent the boards routinely and am contemplating coming back to WoW now that I have a bit more free time on my hands with Grad School.

    Seems to me though Jake that you aren't really addressing harley's topic precisely though. Not approving of someones actions in a particular aspect of their life is not a justification for ignoring other parts of their personality that you may find attractive and approve of. To label all social drinking as purely some societal peer pressure is naive. It is a cultural norm that supersedes such a simple explanation. Being unable to compromise on certain behaviors that may not fit with your exacting values will fundamentally separate you from society and prevent many potential relationships and friendships. Have strong feelings about it by all means for whatever reason. That is your right and you shouldn't be ostracized for feeling that way. At the same time however don't judge others to harshly. It will just lead to isolation.

    As an aside, tone down the ego trip man. "I am the counselor" and "If I can't be friends with some one because of their alcohol use then that's their loss, not mine." is just a tad heavy handed. You obviously feel very strongly about this topic, but you have way to much "holier than though" attitude going on.

    Regardless, Jake you have the "fun" thing about guild life completely spot on and your assessment of burnout is 100% accurate. Too much focus on endgame will crush even the most avid players. Keep it casual and keep it fun.
     
  13. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    Correct. I never said otherwise.

    Peer pressure as an explanation for social drinking it not precluded by the fact that it's a cultural norm. The explanation is possible and even probable given certain perspectives. Therefore my explanation is not naive, but rather your dismissal of that explanation is naive in the absense of positive disproof.

    It is not hard to see cultural norms as peer pressures since they are subject to popular influence. You can see how popular pressures affect social drinking by identifying societies that don't drink any alcohol (there are many). If alcohol transcended these pressures then we should see a more even distribution of alcohol usage, and certainly not a multimodal distribution like what exists.

    Let go of your limited perspective. Society isn't necessarily the home team. All value systems have their enemies that they do not care to associate with. The question of who is separated from who and the implications that follow depends on the value system to which your perspective subscribes. You feel sorry for me. I feel sorry for you.

    No ego trip here... at least no more than you, my opposition. I have defended my arguments with much more than my ego if you care to read up. I suspect my isolated position on this issue is affecting your perception of my ego, that just because I stand alone in absolute defiance of the majority I must necessarily have a God complex. Disagreement does not necessitate unwarranted confidence in your opposition. If you can present me with a good argument as to why alcohol is OK then I am open to being convinced. It has been done before.

    And I really am the counselor. Tons of people come to me for help with their problems.
     
  14. Kalgareth

    Kalgareth Peasant

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    You say so yourself that you judge someone harshly for whether or not they drink alcohol. Other evidence would lead to the understanding that you believe any sort of compromise on this topic is completely unthinkable from your perspective. The way in which you deal with it is not with some type of discussion since others aren't receptive, rather you pronounce judgment, ignore dissent and move on. There is no true understanding of the other perspective rather you see said discussion in completely black and white terms and judge disagreement with your "factual" interpretation as completely misguided. This lack of acceptance of another perspective, however repulsive to your ideals, limits the strength of your future arguments on the matter.

    You are claiming that societal use of alcohol is purely the result of peer pressure on a mass level. I do not disagree that it is one aspect of the cultural norm but it is certainly not the singular reason for its use. Cultural norms are created on a historic time line. The direct relationship of an individual to his society in a situation where he can be affected by peer pressure discounts many of these historic influences. Furthermore, I am not making the claim that alcohol use is singularly a result of this peer pressure. You are and thus it is your impetus to present positive proof of this stance you are taking.

    There are numerous other anthropological, cultural, and geographic reasons that can explain why other such societies don't use alcohol. Again, cultural norms are defined over a historic time line and numerous things besides a alcohol positive societal peer pressure can explain the lack of a presence of alcohol.


    On the contrary, my perspective has not been limited at all by an understanding of different "value systems." Your lack of understanding and unwillingness to acknowledge a perspective contradictory to your own is severely limiting your own perspective. I have not labeled myself as in support or disagreement with your stance on alcohol. I am not questioning what you have said regarding the factual biological affects of alcohol and its influence. That is not the discussion. Its your rush to judgment and isolationist attitude with regards to this topic that disturbs me. "The value system to which my perspective subscribes" is that of understanding not zealous judgment. I'm glad that you feel sorry for me, but I certainly don't for you because to a certain degree I can understand your view. I don't need to have pity or sympathy when there is comprehension. Emotion in such a debate as to the nature of discourse is irrelevant.

    Thats not it at all. Its the tone, which is coming across loud and clear in this medium, that is reinforcing my position regarding your ego trip. Flamboyant commentary such as "I am the Counselor" and "If I can't be friends with some one because of their alcohol use then that's their loss, not mine.", although all too common in message board culture, are still nothing more than overt displays of ego. Disagreement is the life blood of discourse and a strong confidence in your position is key as well, however a lack of understanding brought about by ignoring the opposition as irrelevant only stifles the entire process.


    I believe this and am sure you offer sound advice as you have for literally years on various topics here on the boards. This is yet another example of why I am finding your stance on this particular topic so perplexing. The lack of discourse and arbitrary dismissal is not your normal modus operandi.
     
  15. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    This topic is beginning to polarize and misrepresent.

    Why is alcohol OK? Why should I tolerate it? Because it's culturally accepted? Because it feels good? Lots of drugs are popular and feel good but we don't tolerate and accept all of them. I need more justification if I am to reverse my opinion about such a dangerous drug that causes so much harm.
     
  16. lost

    lost Peasant

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    It turns out that there are some people who take these "societal norms" above and beyond what the "acceptable limit" or "standard" is (who knew...) and that is indeed a very dangerous place to be. And you are absolutely right to walk away from such an overtly disporportionate display of misconduct, especially since it offends your morals so.

    And yet there is the concept of all things in moderation. And unfortunately not all people at all times in all circumstances possess the meritorious aptness that you claim to have to meet that limit and cease any further action. We're a flawed society. And I'd be willing to bet that's what eats at you...the damage done in those destructive moments that can't be taken back.

    It's unfortunante, as previosuly posted, that any given person as a whole is discarded based on one isolated fault in your textbook world. Life is so much prettier in color. And so are you.
     
  17. harleyb

    harleyb Peasant

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    What's your opinion on prescription drugs like antidepressants?
     
  18. DunAzrael

    DunAzrael Peasant

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    Msc certainly has changed
     
  19. Calendryll

    Calendryll MSC Commander and Donator

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    It's WoW. It brings out the evil gnome in people.
     
  20. JollyRedGiant

    JollyRedGiant MSC Commander

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    CAL!!!! when you gonna be back? :D
     

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