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Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Beeble, Feb 19, 2003.

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  1. Autolycus

    Autolycus Forum Moderator

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    arent you like 14 :confused:
     
  2. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

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    Hah hahhah
    It wouldn't make a very good debate if you both completely accepted each other's ideas wihtout attempting to convince the other person that your stance is more correct.
     
  3. Beeble

    Beeble Peasant

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    :rofl: he's either a junior or a senior. I forget. lol.
     
  4. Strader

    Strader Peasant

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    What Guru is trying to say is that he doesn't want to have everything he says turn into a debate. Why not just listen to his view, state yours and then move on? These forums are way critical of any mistake or difference of opinion. Haite seems to understand this.

    To answer Mud there are plenty of forums out there that are less critical. I would name one but why should I? I feel no need to validate my claim and don't wish to debate it. Nothing can be said here without proof and that's really quite sad because a lot of what is criticized is not that outlandish at all.

    The situation here will never change. The moderators don't care enough to try. There's no pleasure in having to fight a stupid debate about the same thing all the time. I had a nice coversation on another forum last evening and you know what? Nobody criticized each other, they just stated what they thought. There's nothing wrong with a debate but some of you guys live off of correcting/contradicting others. Not many people care to be around that after a while because it just squeezes the joy out of conversing with each other.

    Just for the record, the above does not apply to SpocKirk, Jedsia or Haite. They are far less critical and post in a far less absolute way, while still getting their message across. Kudos to you because you care enough about the other guy to truely listen to what they have to say and have proven this time and time again.

    Debate this all you want but it is the way that it is. If it was not, then a bunch of people would not be leaving the site. Perhaps this is idealistic talk but human beings have minds and can create a great many things, including an environment where people can get together and talk about things without feeling like they'll get jumped on at every turn. This may not be the reality of all sites but it is the reality of a noticable amount.

    Example situation:

    Person A: "Religious people are stupid"
    Person B: "Please don't say stupid because that is a blanket statement and is not founded in fact."

    Typical turnout:

    Person A: "No, they are stupid because of yadda, yadda, yadda..."
    Person B: "That is only a small group of people and most are not like that... etc... Let's just leave it at that."
    Person A: "No because they...."

    (Discussion debate where one side didn't want to participate but feels compelled to defend their view even though they really don't feel like it.)

    Ideal turnout:

    Person A: "I'm sorry. Perhaps not all religious people are stupid but from my experience some are."
    Person B: "Some are but most are not in my experience. Let's just accept this and not go into it further."
    Person A: "k"

    Alternate Ideal turnout:

    Person A: "I guess not all of them are stupid but it seems to me that many are."
    Person B: "True. What did these people do to make you dislike them so much?" (Discussion/debate now begins and on a good note.)

    I know this sounds corny but if people wouldn't make blanket insult statements and just give it a rest if nobody wanted to talk about it that'd be much nicer. Let people just believe what they want and if they don't want to discuss it then don't. I am not always so controlled in this area myself but I'm willing to do my best and make an effort but there's no point if others aren't willing to try. I'm not asking for a fake ideal forum where people are always nice, just for a forum that allows people to say what they believe and not have to defend it every single time.

    If this does not sound reasonable then I'm sorry to have wasted your time but these are some of the reasons for this groups departure.
     
  5. Mentosman24

    Mentosman24 Peasant

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    I have an idea.

    Lets have an argument thread with people making long posts with big words trying to sound smarter than their opponents...WAIT! I found it.

    LET IT GO - THIS DOES NOT MATTER
     
  6. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    I never attack the person, only the topic.

    Don't be offended, that's the key. If you choose to be offended, there is nothing I can do.
     
  7. kraahl

    kraahl Peasant

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    Wheren´t you leaving? :nya:
     
  8. Strader

    Strader Peasant

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    Yeah, I noticed that you don't attack the person. It was other people who did the direct insults.

    An argument thread sounds like an excellent idea. That way we can just post in normal threads and if we want to debate we can take it there.

    I thought I'd be considerate and linger a little while and answer questions regarding the choice. We didn't nessessarily say that we were leaving entirely right away.
     
  9. Mentosman24

    Mentosman24 Peasant

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    :rofl:
     
  10. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

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    Do you want me to go through all of guru's posts and count how many turned into a debate compared to how many are just regular posts? I'll bet it's like 2,000 to 1.


    Lame, apparently you didn't realize that this forum isn't called, "The forum where strader gets everything he wants because the sole purpose of its existance is to talk about things that he wants to talk about".
    There are many threads here just talking about random stuff that don't degenerate into debates. If you don't want a debate to start from your post then don't post debatable material.


    If you don't like the debate, don't participate in it. We happen to like it, you do not, so stay out of the debates if that's your wish.
    Anyways, maybe you need to face reality, you can't cry whenever someone disagrees with you. There will always be controversy, someone will always want something different from what you want. Accept it, I'm not going to pretend that I'm in kindergarten where I have to be nice to everyone, if someone says something that I don't like I will criticize them, and by this they also are defaulted the right to criticize me.


    Boo hoo, grow up. Realize that not everyone is going to have that attitude. You're not dead and in heaven.


    Well, yeah, I will debate it. Do you know why? Because it's debatable material. Don't expect everyone to unconditionally accept everything you say.


    I NEVER did this.


    True, that would be the ideal discussion. But in this place we call reality, ideals do not apply. People have biases, they are ignorant of topics, accept this. It is your role in a debate to convince the person that the stance they have taken is incorrect and ignorant, etc..
    Don't just expect people to conform to your idealistic expectations.

    You can state your beliefs and I'll accept them, but if I don't agree with them why should I not have the right to debate them? If you don't want me to debate them then don't state them!
     
  11. Beeble

    Beeble Peasant

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    I seem to inadvertently start debates.

    THe debate thread sounds good, so split threads can go there and be out of my life.
     
  12. Strader

    Strader Peasant

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    Who said you did? Never pointed you out.

    I just talked about this. We don't always want every single thing we say to be debated in the thread. It disrupts the thread. I like mud's idea about a debate/argument thread for taking it there. Rather a constuctive idea. A debate thread would be nice because you could then continue with the thread and not have to participate in the debate because it was "hijacked" and turned debate thread.
     
  13. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

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    Hey, let's have some fun.

    D&D religion debate:
    Wow, if that wont start a debate I don't know what will. If religious reasons had been left off the debate would not have started.

    Love & hate debate:
    I would have never expected this to degenerate into a debate, especially considering the fact that it contained a personal attack.

    real women/fake women debate
    You just stated your morals, you've obliged others to state theirs. This has a 150% of turning into a debate.



    Those were the only debates that spawned from guru's posts. Dapork started some others, but he had the intention of them being a debate.

    So over the last year we've had about six debates. I'm estimating that over the last year there have been approximately 20,000 posts. Hmm...I think your numbers are off.
     
  14. Beeble

    Beeble Peasant

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    I was merely stating an opinion and not degrading others. I don't like people thinking that I look at porn, so I state my opinion, I don't like D&D, so I say so. Why does this have to be a debate? I don't start the debate, people contort what I say and make a debate.
     
  15. Strader

    Strader Peasant

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    Not really. The other person stated their beliefs and he stated his. If they want to debate they should take it to another thread or just say that they do not believe he is correct and say that they don't want to go any further. A lot less effort that way.
     
  16. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

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    In above post.
    Responding to Jake's post in same thread.
    Hmm, who does that leave? Me. I'm aware of the fact that many of you clash with my personality, and that's fine, I accept it. I don't post garbage in every single god damned thread about it. Do you people think I like to read offhand comments flaming me in every thread?

    Again, debates only occur when you post debatable material. It's not hard to check your post for that kind of thing.
     
  17. Strader

    Strader Peasant

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    Sorry but it doesn't. There are other people here as well. You stay pretty clear of the debates. I should have added you when it comes to the debate part. I was listing people who were fairly balanced in their posts. You're not balanced all the time, which is fine, but I didn't say you post crap in debates. Sorry if you thought I did, but I didn't. I just named a few people. There are more but I didn't see the need to go on.

    No debates occur when people start to discuss something. Two people can state their opinions and not be debating. You just learn each others views and go on. Otherwise you can start up a debate, in which case mud's idea works nicely because it doesn't "force" the other person to join in as much if they don't want to. They can continue with the original point of the thread uninterupted.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2003
  18. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    yes

    yes
     
  19. cowofwar

    cowofwar Peasant

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    Anything can be turned into a debate if you're really looking for one, but I was referring to the big things like religion, sexuality, morality, etc..

    If you keep those out of your threads there's a very good chance that it wont turn into a turd flinging contest.
     
  20. aleldtritch

    aleldtritch Peasant

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    The only thing I dislike about this forum is that, in my opinion, people get criticized too much on their "debate strategy." Many rebuttals just point out how people's arguments are invalid because they're merely opinions or they're just restating something or they don't support every single point with enough information or what-have-you. I'm all for debates, because face it, if some people have differing opinions on a subject that there's a thread on and they decide to reply, someone will most likely make reference to the opposing view's post thus creating a debate.

    Many threads aren't easily debatable, but most are. And I agree with Strader, I prefer threads with just a normal discussion, but that pretty much only occurs with the majority of the posters share a similar view point. But there are so many issues that have view-points that are heavily influenced by a person's ethnicity, age, geographic location, country of origin, etc. that it's almost impossible to avoid these on a forum who's members are brought together solely by their preference for Macs.

    I belong to 3 forums, and regularly browse 2 others, and find that aside from what I pointed out in my first paragraph, they don't differ too much.
     
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