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1.11 Mage Changes

Discussion in 'MSC Clan' started by Lurk, May 4, 2006.

  1. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    Like I said before, the dev don't play WoW (unless you count playing to an hour a week as actually playing, if that). Otherwise they wouldn't rely too much on feed-back and know what the description of the mage is in their manual that came with the game (or maybe they lost their manual??).

    Stuff I don't like:
    Master of Elements: useless IMO and most mages I know think so too. You get mana back based on crit meaning you get (1 pt) 40 mana back for fire spells and 22 mana for frost spell only if you crit. It could work for flamestrike, blastwave, frost nova, and CoC if I solo (which I don't do that any more). Even on long fights (15+ min.) I find that evocation was enough to constantly be casting and not run out of mana.

    Arcane Resilience: why is that talent even there? +50% armor based on Int means nothing. Even epic'd out I only have 350 Int so they expect me to use up a talent point for 170ish armor bonus. If I had 2000-3000 armor that might make a difference but most mages have about 1300 and adding another 170 won't make that much a difference.

    Frost Warding and Fire Warding: Frost warding might be useful in Naxxramus but from what I've seen so far, it's probably another talent filler because the devs don't know what to put there. Most mobs that are fire/frost based are immune to that respective spell type so reflecting it back means nothing. It might be useful in PvP perspective but other than that it's useless.

    Tier 7 talents: Even though Ice Barrier got a huge boost (30 sec CD instead of 1 min), all the tier 7 talents can be purged by a skill that don't require any talent points whatsoever.

    Blizzard still thinking that mages require an over-abundance of mana:
    True that mages don't do as well without mana however there are several ways that we can get our mana back (Rubys, mana pots, evoc, pally blessing/judgements, shaman totems). With all these ways to obtain mana, blizzard still think we need mana talents.

    Stuff I do like:
    Blizzard finally realize that we need aggro reduction skills: All the other dps types either have an aggro reduction skill (rogue = feint, vanish; hunters = feign death; priest = fade) or enough armor to withstand a few attacks (warriors) when mages just get 1-shotted every time we steal boss aggro.

    Elemental Focus: Perhaps it doesn't pertain too much to you guys since you hardly fight/kill anything over lvl 61 but it's really nice to have the +hit %. Almost 1/4 of my spells gets resisted and that's for fire, frost is even worse since it's bilateral (complete hit or resist situation). Most of the time in BWL I'd spam arcane missles since most bosses are fire immune. And when we fight Huhuran at 30%, all of the sudden she'll have increased resistance such that she'll completely resist 5-6 fire spells in a row.

    Like I pointed out, Blizzard don't play this game (at least not a mage) or they wouldn't have to rely on feed-backs. They'd know that mana isn't as big a deal to mages as they currently think it is and that aggro reduction and damage is more important. Also what I'd like to see is that they actually did do something to change the mage but all they did was just move stuff around for the mage whereas they did actually re-do the other classes (for better or worst).
     
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  2. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    The description in the manual is outdated. Mages need to get past that. Blue post on that topic:

    Translation: Working as intended. QQ more. L2P.

    Somewhat valid points on Resilience and Wards, but on MoE and mana talents you and the "mages you know" are off base, especially for Fire/Arcane mages. Potions, gems, Evoc all have long cooldowns. Anything that delays their use is good, because it increases the chances it'll be there when you really need it. Also, any time you are using Evoc, you are not casting. Since you are still clinging to the outdated manual, you should like talents like this. Anything that allows you to sustain your DPS also increases your damage meter e-peen. Mages get too wrapped up in direct damage buffs without seeing that other game mechanics also affect damage output. Once again, it's a L2P scenario.

    For once you are right. Aggro reduction is another mechanic that does what, class? Increases damage potential.

    And even we poor non-raiders see the value of Elemental Focus. I'm trying to find a Fire/Arc build that fits it in, but I'd have to sacrifice PoM or points in Fire Power, which I'm not sure I'm willing to do. As I've pointed out before, talent trees that force you to make choices are good for the game. Cookie-cutter syndrome is lame. The raiding community are the biggest perpetrators of this. The fact that many raid guilds force certain builds from druids, mages, and priests as a condition of membership into their "l33t" group only proves that.

    Oh, and the level 63 giants that 6 of us were fighting last night say hello.
     
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  3. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    Potions = 2 min CD
    Gems = 2 min CD
    Evoc = 10 min CD

    Normal boss fights are 7-10 mins. Plus blessings/judgement means an endless stream of mana. Even 15 min fights I find my using evoc at almost the last 2-3 mins in which case I should stop dps'ing a bit since my aggro have build almost to where the warriors are.

    Here's a breakdown post-MC (since MC bosses usually die within 3 mins most the time; Rag fight is about 4 mins max).

    Razorgore: nothing much but kill mages until you fight razorgore and even then I don't need evoc/pot/gem cause we have to stop casting for 5 secs every 3-4 spells. Tanks get burned and can't control themselves so keeping aggro down is a must. If someone steals aggro when tanks are running around burning, then usually half the raid would die before tanks are able to get aggro back.

    Vaels: Buff gives infinite mana so nothing to worry there.

    Broodlord: Wanding 60-75% of the time to not steal aggro since it would create a chain reaction that usually kill half the raid and you get really pissed of guildies.

    Firemaw: Have to run in and out casting frost/missles and run back in to hide when you get 3 debuff or you'll have a huge dot. Healers don't even bother healing you since they have to heal the tanks because tanks have huge debuff that require almost constant healing. You have to bandage yourself most the time to keep your hp up.

    Ebonroc: If tanks do it right you can constantly attack. This is usually where I would use a gem, potion, and evoc. Ebonroc isn't hard, it's just he heals himself up the ass and take long to kill.

    Flamegor: Not even bother using a gem since he's so easy we wonder why he was even a boss.

    Chromaggus: Again have to run in and out every 30 seconds to avoid his breath. This means you stop dps for 5-10 seconds. Even then, if he's nature or shadow vulnerable, you'll use your nature/shadow wand instead of casting since it'll do more dps. Example: he's shadow vulnerable = rank 12 fireball does 200ish dmg whereas a green wand (40 dps) with shadow dmg does 350 dmg.

    Nef: AoE during phase 1 (this is where I usually use evoc, pot, gem). Phase 2: Wand 90%, AoE when it's warlock call, cast your longest spell (channeling) when it's a mage call. By the time phase 3 comes you have full mana since the judgement/blessing and the regen been kicking in. Phase 3 you just AoE the zerg and then do the same thing you did in phase 2. Reason you can't constantly cast in phase 2 is all it takes is for Nef to look your way for 1 sec and do a shadowflame and instantly 75% of your raid will die (or at least you won't survive to even contribute since shadowflame does 5.5-6k dmg).

    Pretty much the same with AQ except for Fankriss fight where you have to AoE after you kill Fankriss. Mages in raids are usually responsible for decursing and sheeping MC'd people. When mages actually do contribute to dps, we don't constantly cast like 20-man instances. Usually we hold back some unless it's a last ditch effort to finish off the boss. So even with my 7k mana (fully buffed), I don't ever run out. So no it's not a L2P scenario. You need to raid HIGH level instances to know what mages really need. And no I don't consider MC a High level instance any more. If you can kill most of the bosses with only 20 people than it shouldn't be a high level instance. Even PUGs that know what to do can almost finish MC. Heck, on my server you see people spamming in IF for MC raiding.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2006
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  4. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Ahh, here is your problem, your e-peen has stolen all the oxygen from your brain.

    Blizzard devs own estimate of people who've killed Ragnaros: 25% of the population.

    Estimate for Nefarian: 10-15% of the population.

    My numbers are from memory, but they're in the ballpark. If you want I can find the article for you, it was in the New York Times.

    Assuming mages make up 1/8 of the population, that means that roughly 1-3% of mages have killed Nefarian. So you want Blizzard to cater to 1-3% of the mage class? Sorry, get over yourself.

    You are an elitist raider who thinks he knows more because he has some purples and 7k mana fully buffed. No, not all raiders are like that. I know several who aren't, a few of them post on this board and usually disagree with you. Most of your ideas and rants are neither original nor particularly insightful, I'm sorry to clue you in.

    In a balanced game, raiding is no more or less difficult than small party content, it just has better loot. Mob encounters are just that: encounters to be learned. That's true from the Deadmines all the way to C'thun. It naturally tends to take longer for 40 people to learn an encounter than it does 5 people, but that's a product of the people, not of the game. And chances are you have 4-5 knowledgeable people in your raids telling 35 other gimps (read: you) what to point at and shoot, so stop living under the delusion that you know more about anything because you've seen BWL and AQ40.

    The trees are fine. Everything you need is there. If you can't succeed with what you've been given, guess what? You need to Lrn2FingPlay.
     
  5. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    In messing with the new trees, I find myself constantly torn between raiding and 5/10-manning and soloing. The trees can definitely be filled for different play styles. It's not surprising there is a difference of opinion between people with different play styles.
     
  6. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    You're talking about Rag and Nef kills. And basing things on final bosses is not precise. Every guild (that have more than 50 people) on my server can consistantly kill half the MC bosses. Almost everyone running around on my server that is in a raid guild will at least have 4-5 purple (as you would call it) items on their mains. The only ones without purples would be if it was their alt or they just started playing on the server. I'm willing to bet that even on Hyjal it's the same cause my chars on that server is also in a guild with roughly 70-80 people and they are already collecting MC loot. So in fact you got it backwards. There are more people raiding than you think. Only reason why I respect you guys since you refuse to grow big enough to be a raid guild.

    Go check out the "review" that other classes get. You'll find that they get major improvement (except for warriors cause Blizzard probably don't play warriors either). Otherwise they wouldn't do 2 "reviews" at the same time since shamans are also getting talents redone in 1.11. From what I see, shamans got the better part of the "review" and Blizzard only glanced at the mage and say to themselves "We'll just throw them a bone to keep them quiet." I don't care what you think but I what I really want isn't for a better talent build or more damage; I just want my fair share of the time for them to "review" my class of choice. If you think about it, every other "review" have been only one class at a time and mages get "review" with shamans. From what was posted some time back, shamans were already what Blizzard intended them to be and yet they got the better part of the 1.11 talent "review".

    And no. No one tells anyone what to do in my guild. All our mages have different builds because we needed diversity for bosses. Half of us are Frost mages and the other half are Fire or Arcane mages. And unless you consider full NW and the Staff of Qiraji Acolyte as being gimp, then yes I'm gimp. All our mages have full NW gear and some are holding out for Staff of the Shadowflame while others go for the staff that I have.
     
  7. Autolycus

    Autolycus Forum Moderator

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    hey guys look out, he's killed nefarian. that means he's smarter than you! i guess by that same logic i know more about everything warcraft than he does since i've killed c'thun. emirite?

    back on topic though: none of the reviews have made sweeping changes to any class because they're just TALENT reviews. they're optimizing the trees and offering small buffs here and there, it's not meant to be a total redesign of the class.
     
  8. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    I rest my case.
     
  9. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    So you're saying Moonkin for druid review and the recent priest review wasn't a major change? Even shamans are getting more love than mages.
     
  10. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    Oh and if you think 7k mana fully buffed is a lot, it's not. I have more mana than paladins, but that's about all. Priest and druids have about 8-9k (10k+ if they use flask).
     
  11. Autolycus

    Autolycus Forum Moderator

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    yes, they were minor tweaks at best. druids and priests still heal, shamans still heal, mages still nuke and make water. (although most of it comes out of their eyes lately)
     
  12. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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  13. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Interesting. I came up with that exact Fire tree earlier when I was messing around.

    I'm really torn on the new Imp Scorch, it's a definite temptation now. Some on the boards claim talented Scorch will rival Rank 12 Fireball's DPS with much greater mana efficiency. Not having run the numbers myself I can't say for sure, but Imp Scorch might be the girl you once knew with glasses and braces who shows up at your class reunion looking all hot.
     
  14. Elbereth

    Elbereth MSC Commander and Donator

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    Last edited: May 16, 2006
  15. Scorpion

    Scorpion Peasant

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    Not a bad build. It's better to get PoM and Pyro though (never know when you have to go all out for the finishing blow).

    Improved Arcane Missles is a must IMO, especially for raiding. Too many bosses with AoE interruptions (boss in scholo b4 gandling, baron, etc.). It's a difficult choice between Imp CS and Meditation. I've tried both Meditation and Arcane Mind and Meditation is definitely better.

    I'd still drop MoE since it's based on crit (I'd take it if it was base on hit). Best possible crit % for a fire mage is only 20% and that's if you have all the +crit gear in the game including talents (also have to take into account resist; crit = 0 if it's completely resisted). Right now I'm at 12-13% crit for being fire.
    Here's the calculations based on 3 pt talent for MoE:
    Fireball: 400 base * .3 = 120 mana
    Scorch: 150 base * .3 = 45 mana
    Frostbolt: 240 base * .3 = 72 mana

    Most boss fights you'll crit about 3 times average. 360 mana is not a lot assuming you constantly cast fireball. I'm willing to bet I'd get more mana from a mana spring totem or wisdom judgement (wisdom judgement gives 50ish mana every time you hit the target).

    I'd rather get pyro and blastwave + 1 pt improved Fblast. That way I can put on my 5 stacks of Imp Scorch and do Fireball, PoM + Pyro (or hope that NW proc) then Fblast for maximum damage. I'll probably have to drop Elemental Precision but the 6% can be made up with gear seeing how +hit% is going on so many gear now.
     
  16. Jakeman

    Jakeman MSC Founder and Donator

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    (edit - got my crit percents wrong)

    I would have 17% crit fire spells and 21% crit scorch / fireblast with my current gear. That is why I put points into MoE. But even then, I question its use... I would need to try using it for a while.

    Getting PoM requires giving up precision. For this build I was going for high consistent damage instead of burst with a cooldown. But either way could work.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2006
  17. Autolycus

    Autolycus Forum Moderator

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    mana spring is 10 mana every 2 seconds for 60 seconds. wtb blessing/judgement of wisdom :(
     
  18. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    Roll alliance.
     
  19. Wulf

    Wulf MSC Knight and Donator

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    Don't forget it also isn't stuck in one spot.
     
  20. Lurk

    Lurk Peasant and Donator

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    True dat. I'm seeing it more all the time. We got [Shroud of Arcane Mastery] from the BRD arena chest last night. I'm seriously considering wearing it in MC (would have to drop my FR cloak, but I'd still have plenty of FR for a caster without it).

    (Although if I equip it the group I was with may want some gold, since we didn't roll for it. :D)

    Elemental Precision is good for raiding though, I imagine it would be hard for you to pass up. If you don't raid there's not much point to taking 3/3 in Precision since anything over +5% to hit will only help you on mobs level 63 and above.
     

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